VCTR transcript mahayana

Talk 1 Training the Mind RMDC 8/18/74
Synopsis of themes: What is mind? Who is meditating? Chitta: sense of separateness. Search for
other. Search as euphemism for panic. Sense of weakness. Mind as minding. The working
ground / the motive: from hopelessness. Ego-process. Trusting first thought.
—
[VCTR recording starts in the middle of a sentence] …taking precautions about fire and first
aide. I think that we could be quite safely to talk about why we’re here. [laughter.]
As I remember correctly, theme of this seminar is training the mind. Is that the case? [Laughter].
Yes? [Audience: yes] Good. [laughter.] In that case, we should try to find out what we’re going
to do, what we’re going to study. It seems that situations that we have here, and the collection of
people such like yourselves, as far as I look it, as the cream of the milk, that people who had
managed to stand beyond the energies of Naropa, still you survived, wanting to come out here,
and those people who are interested thoroughly and completely, and wanted to come out and
make journey out here to study. So, the schedule is rather smaller in scale as usual seminars takes
place, but still I feel this is a very important group and therefore during this seminar I would like
to work with you in terms of trying to understand the basic meanings of training the mind. It is
very important for us not only because it will just purely will do good for you, but it is important
for us always, myself and you, that we are sharing something together. That’s the basic important
point, rather then me purely talking to you and you are taking your notes down in your note
book, or whatever. Maybe you could write down that if you like. [laughter.]
The important point here, what we are talking, is we wanted to talk about mind, and actually
trying to find out what is meditation and who is meditating; what happens when you begin to
meditate. I don’t think we have to go through too much details of the advertisement level –- in
which how it is great if you meditate, but we could get into the nitty-gritty of the basics at this
point by looking into what we mean by mind. And since this approach is training the mind, we
have to understand what do we mean by mind. And there is linguistic, there is experiential, and
also phenomenological jargon that exists whenever anybody mentions about mind or the
consciousness or whatever – that so many definitions be made completely or half-heartedly.
So, we have somewhat of a problem here, that we have to understand what we’re doing, and we
have to be quite clear: who are we, in fact, at this point. That seems to be the basic point. We
could start on that as the seed question: who are we? Well, I am so-and-so by name. I was born
and brought up in Texas, Arizona, New England, Alaska. But that isn’t quite the point of who
you are, or what you are. That’s kind of passport language, that you present your filling forms in
order to get out of a country — you write certain definitions of who you are what you are. Or if
you try to obtain a visa from another country, you do that. But we’re not concerned with that,
this particularly, we are planning to settle down in this country and experience the raw and
ruggedness of America and practice meditation. So our particular aim is not so much to gallivant
around the world, but it is more of settling down at this point.
So let us look at again once more: who are we, what are we. Well, quite possibly you will say
that “This thing happens in me which feels I am myself. And I feel myself very powerfully, very
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strongly, because there is no other choice, that I feel I am what I am. And beyond even my name,
that I feel my thingness inside me, that I feel me.” Obviously, those statements that you might
present is connected with emotionalism of some kind, that you feel lonely; therefore you want to
say, “I am what I am.” Or you feel extremely angry, so therefore you have to assert yourself
being me: “I’m angry and I have a rights to fight or to say my stuff — my things, my line — to my
object of my anger.” And if I feel lustful, that my lover, my object of passion also had to be
acknowledged. “I feel this way, therefore that particular person had to surrender to me, and we
have to work things together.” But the main point is that I am what I am; that I have to actually
acknowledge myself before we do anything.
I somehow have a strong message of some kind or another that I’m going to tell you. Quite
possibly, then we try to be generous after that flash of thought, and we say, quite possibly,
“Maybe you have something to say about me, and please come and say,” trying to be more
ingratiating. But that was afterthought in some sense. But nevertheless, even when you said to
me what you think of me and what you think of yourself, I still wanted to have another talk with
you. And let us get together , or let us talk on the spot by saying that “This is what’s happening.
This is a very strong energy situation that’s happening, that I feel very powerful of this particular
situation, and how about some kind of trade, some kind of deal in which you will make me
happy and I will make you happy. Or I’ll make you wretched, and you make me feel wretched.
We have a duel. We’ll fight for death. Whatever.
So, what is this, is we’re talking about this at this particular point, this? This thing that is highlystrung like a wild horse or a paranoid dog. That this, that is in us, with us, is very tough, and so
seductive — sometimes extremely good, sometimes extremely wicked. That this thing that we
have, we’re talking about this thing, in this case we’re talking about is mind, obviously. We’re
not particularly talking about our body or our situation, whatever, but we’re talking about our
mind. The definition of mind from this point of view is “that which experiences the sense of
separateness, sense of separateness.” That you are going to conduct your business with
somebody, either passion or aggression or whatever. That you are dealing with something; you
are trying to manage something or other. As long as that attitude of thisness is involved, there is
always the otherness is involved automatically. It is impossible to exist without that or without
this, that t hat couldn’t survive or this couldn’t survive.
There is a basic notion that you want to hang onto something or other. That’s called mind. And
Sanskrit word that for is often used is word “chitta” [spells c-h-i-t-a], chitta, which literally
means “heart” – that’s the direct translation – but if you could look into the implication behind
the whole thing, that we are not talking purely in terms of heart alone, but we are talking in
terms of that which feels need for something, reinforce one’s existence, need for something or
other –eagerly looking for an enemy and eagerly looking for a lover of different degrees, of
something or other. That is what it boils down to.
That enemy notion is not necessarily enemy as such person that you extremely hated, and you
feel terribly sick of that particular person. Or, in lover question, that you are particularly
absolutely in love with that person, particularly, but there is all kinds of large areas of love and
hate, that sometimes they are mixed together at the borderlines, and sometimes there is more
emphasis of need for reinforcement of your strength – as that you are a powerful person that you
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could strike on somebody, and that person acknowledges you, and begin to give in to you. Or
that person could be seduced into your territory, and begin to give in to you, and would like to
open to you in the realm of passion or whatever, lust.
The question of mind — the word “mind” seems to be somewhat isolated from what it should
meant, that we have a grammatical problem there. If you use the word mind as a noun, which is
an isolated term, at the same time it is active, so it should be used as a verb. And the only closest
verb that we can think of is “minding”, which is a continual thing, that you are minding. Your
mind is minding, constantly, that looking for a reference point, looking for a connection of some
kind.
That fundamentally we feel that we don’t exist, and fundamentally we feel are inadequate, or
something or other, that there is a basic panic that involved, which is that we don’t feel so good
to be ourselves, basically. Obviously you can say, “I’m having a fantastic life. I’ve been to the
Naropa Institute, I’ve been up on the land, and I had a fantastic time. It was great, and I feel like
a new person!” Sure, but still, why do we have to keep thinking about those things again and
again? Why? If it’s there already, if it’s real enough there’s no reason that one has to say those
things and reflect again and again about reassurance. That is precisely the point, that there is
some kind of a hole somewhere that we actually know intuitively. We feel that something is
fundamentally leaking [laughter], but we don’t really want to acknowledge as such, particularly.
And that has been the problem always all along. So according to the Buddhist way of looking at
the whole thing, that actually you don’t exist, that such a problem is the mark or signs that you
are just about to realize that you don’t exist, that you have no substance anymore.
We keep on trying to survive ourselves in those areas. but however, in terms of the practice of
meditation and meditational disciplines that might have evolved, discussing this, is that
important to realize the beginning that who we are what we are, that our basic setup that we have
doesn’t hold truth, and there is lots of areas where weakness takes place constantly, namely
trying to survive and struggle. We pray to God to help us to strengthen ourselves: “And please
let me exist, and if I don’t exist, tell me that I do exist. I pray to you so that you can tell me that I
exist. Grant your blessing, or whatever, send your Holy Spirit on me so that I can confirm to
myself that I do exist. And I’m a true believer of blah blah.” [Laughter. Pause.]
And the question here is basically what we are discussing here is not particularly of religion, but
we are talking purely in terms of some kind of wholesomeness that we can experience within
ourselves. Obviously, there is some kind of goal. And so you might criticize by saying that,
“Isn’t this duality? Isn’t this split?” Sure it is split and duality, but still, there is no other
language left for us. We have got to talk in some kind of primitive language. And that’s what
we’re doing in the practice of meditation is a part of that, is to try to speak basic primitive logic,
to try to think in such a way, so that eventually we begin to find ourselves humorous, that what
we’re doing is constantly nonexistent – trying to build a sandcastle.
From that point of view, the word “mind” is very important to look into. That panics that
involved with ourselves in constantly, that we are trying to reassure ourselves constantly, and
trying to make ourselves feel better, and feel improved, uplifted, and meditate when we feel
good, and all the rest of it. Those are the problems that exist. And such problems could take in
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the form of spirituality, that by thinking that, “Once I have that sense of search, as we call it —
which is a euphemism to panic — that I feel I’m searching something; I feel I have a purpose in
my life, in a spiritual endeavor.” Such point is regarded as spiritual materialism at this point, that
your search is built on deception, that once that you begin to search, you begin to find you can
exist: you don’t have to give up, after all, the everything. You get something out of it; and if you
could sneak out into the backdoor slowly in spirituality, that we regain our individuality. And I
could quite possibly be on the top of the world again, become a demonic dictator in the name of
spirituality, discipline. So that has become an enormous problem.
So we have to look very closely, very precisely, in this point, that what is actually mind – our
mind’s function, and all kinds of holes after holes are involved. But at some point, even
acknowledging those holes become a patchwork. That you think you are, have exposed yourself,
you have become completely purified and clean and reasonable person. You have cleared out all
the deceptions and you have seen your holes in your logic. But then at the same time you begin
to build patches because of that. So, it’s endless game that goes on, which it seems to be –
fundamentally, basically speaking – the whole thing seems to be absolutely hopeless. And there
is no way out and there is no way in.
And only thing that one can do, one can at least attempt to do something about it – is
acknowledging what’s happening, exposing oneself. And that seems to be the basic point. That is
what’s known as the “working ground” in traditional language, is the “working ground.” And
also it is known as the motive. Once you begin to embark on the spiritual path, one has to have a
clear motivation that what you are doing, what kind of style you are going to conduct yourself,
how you are going to work with yourself: motivation. And this is the motivation is to expose
oneself completely, without the pretence of trying to create another patchwork, at this point. That
seems to be the basic foundation work, which seems to be important for us to review and
examine again. A lot of people might have heard such a concept already and may be familiar
with it, but still it is much safer, purer, in a sense, to go over it again and think about it and make
it into a definite source of study. Learning process, again, seems to be necessary.
Okay, I think if you’d like to take part in a discussion and question period, you’re welcome to
ask.
Q: Rinpoche, the description you just gave of mind sounds a lot like ego, and I was wondering
what the distinction here is, or if it’s relevant.
23:20 talk length

VCTR: Well it’s — When we use the term ego at this point, we are talking in the exclusive ego,
which is self-indulgence, and the self-style, certain fashion, that looking for security and survival
of it’s own existence. And then there could be the traditional Western term “ego”, also whole
thing jumbles together by saying that the ego is also intelligent at the same time. But we’re
talking about ego from this point of view: is that stupid part of ego, the confused, aggressive part
of ego that is completely blinded.
And I think when we talk about mind, at this point, we are not purely talking about that kind of
negative ego alone, but just awareness that exists within your being that is capable of relating
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with a reference point., very simply, without any other trips involved, passion or aggression – but
just coherent experience. That the basic notion that Guenther talks about is noetic mind, that
certain mind has the capability of experiencing reference point without big deal of anything at
all. It’s just kind of a mechanical thing — it’s almost like having antenna. That basic mechanism
– or even if we could call it mechanism, that’s somehow diluted the whole thing – it’s a basic
intelligence, something that exists constantly, all the time. And then we begin to color it by
saying “That is the case” and “This is the case: I would like to change myself in this way, that
way” and so forth, has become the problem. Actually, you begin to change your mind after a
second flash. You begin to make it into something else rather than what you have actually seen.
And, it’s like a young lady is buying a hat, that you like it because you have seen it in the
window of a shop. You thought it was fantastic, had to buy. But then once you go into the shop,
and you ask the shop assistant to show you that hat you’ve seen again, once you hold it and look
at it, you don’t feel so good. And you feel something’s maybe trying to con you, and then you
begin to change your mind, and that has become some kind of problem in that way.
Q, male,: When you speak of mind in that way — of the pure relating without aggression and
passion — does that correspond to the first skandha of form — the direct experience of otherness –
– before the feeling of good, bad, and indifferent of the second skandha?
CTR: I think so, yeah. That’s kind of, still you are working with no-man’s land. There is a sense
of area that is not particularly occupied by either this or that. There’s a sense of openness still,
you know.
Q: I wanted to ask you something else. You said the motive, the working basis, was to expose
oneself without pretence. Does that mean a notion of sort of stepping out, just, I guess not in the,
it wouldn’t be in the sense of indulgence, but a fearlessness, a steeping out, and not being afraid
to show what you are that might come after the initial feeling of self-degradation that you often
get into when you start a spiritual trip?
CTR: Yeah, I think very much so, that usually, problem is that somehow, on the way that we
have been trained to think in a certain way, that the first thought that we come across is somehow
suspicious, and we have to provide it with a second, reasoning thought, which makes second
thought is better which reviews the first thought. And we then feel much safer; we feel more
legitimate. That almost sometimes even we don’t trust that either. We go out of the way by
asking our parents, asking our teachers, “I have this thought but I don’t know, somehow,
whether it’s good or not. Can you tell us? Can you tell me what’s happening?”
So there is so much layers after layers of security mechanisms that have been set up. We be told
to do that way, there are educational things — the very idea of the professionalist is that kind of
thing, that we feel that, if we feel sick we ask a professional that’s called a doctor. If we feel
freaked out, there’s a professional called a psychiatrist. If we feel that our house is leaking or
something’s wrong with the plumbing system, we go to the professionals called plumber or
builder or whatever. There are so many professionals that we have to deal with, from that point
of view. That’s kind of a rejection of the “first thought is best thought” kind of area, which is
become always a problem. That’s a problem in the particular spiritual area. And there is some
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kind of intuitive notion that could actually be picked up, but we actually don’t do that. That has
become a problem. So I mean–
You might say” What is the proof? Are we okay if we did that? Can you guarantee that if we
went along with ‘first thought is best thought?,’ and supposing something that is terribly wrong?
And then what happens?” I mean, that is precisely second thought. [Laughter.]
Q Female: I just don’t understand how you can do this first thought business without going,
once you say—It’s like, first thought makes the distinction it’s like, relative to second thought.
If you say, “First thought is best thought” it’s setting up a relativity, whereas then there’s first,
second, third — When could you ever get first thought again? It just seems like, I don’t know.
The whole thing really bugs me. [Laughter.] You talked about this before at the dathun, about
this first thought best thought, and I felt really limited by it. And I just feel like it’s just first
thought and then first thought first thought. First is relative to second. Why not just “Thought is
best thought?” Thought, thought, thought, thought. I mean, I don’t always feel like that. I’m
conscious of first thought and then “Ehh, well, maybe and well maybe…”
CTR: Well, that sounds like second thought.
Q: Yeah, that is second thought, and that bugs me, too. The whole thing bugs me.
CTR: Well, I think the point is that if you begin to find out that first thought is best thought and
then you don’t have any rooms to improvise further any more. Even that second “first thought” is
just a made up one, or the third “first thought.” You know you are constantly keep on having first
thoughts, you think, having first thoughts, obviously.
Q: Is that deceiving yourself to think that it’s always first thoughts and that –?
CTR: Yeah.
Q: It seems like really unfriendly to yourself–
CTR: That’s right, yeah
Q: –to say that there’s a second thought, it’s like, why can’t I accept the second thought as being
a first thought?
CTR: Well, you can’t. [Laughter.]
That’s obvious that you have a second thought; you regarded that as a first thought of the second
thought, and then you have the third thought and a fourth thought and maybe the hundredth or a
millionth one. And there’s no end, let alone a beginning. And I think that, that’s like when
somebody says, “Jump when I count down after four.” And instead you jump when somebody
counts, you know, “One, two three, jump.” And you regard the jump as being “four”. So you
jump, “One, two, three, four, five, jump.” You missed the jump.
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CTR: Jonathan?
Q, Jonathan: I haven’t heard you use the term “first thought” before. Is what you’re saying the
first thought in relation to a gap previous to the thought where there wasn’t any thought? In other
words, what you’re talking about in second thought is that there’s no gap between the first and
second thought. Is that right?
CTR: That sounds rather complicated, but the first thought we’re talking about is just a first
thought. There is openness, then there is thought.
Q: But what about the second thought?
CTR: Second thought is a reviewing process, usually. You can’t have just two first thoughts
simultaneously; that’s impossible. You have one first thought at a time; then second thought is
reviewing the first thought; and then the third one is further analyzing what your first thought.
And by the time we get to the fourth or fifth level, that you are completely not in contact with the
first thought at all, that you have completely distorted the whole thing. That the first thought we
are talking about is that there is a gap; there is a flash experience. You might find yourself being
an extremely fucked-up person, and insane, which might be the first glimpse you find yourself,
not necessarily that the first thought is the pleasant one, a good one or a high spiritual thought. It
could just be a true realization of one’s neurosis, one’s confused mind. But whatever, it’s always
accurate. That happens; there is a gap and then first thought.
Q, Male: One of the problems with “first thought”, it seems to me, is that once you have the
insight into egolessness — that you’re continually having the project of constructing a sense of
who you are — that brings with it a certain suspicion of thoughts as just further projections of
that, further “searches.”
CTR: Well the first thought here is that you are trying to ask a question about first thought with
your second thought. And that provides a lot of problems in terms of communicating the actual
thing to you. But at the same time, the first thought is not particularly regarded as egoless and
enlightened thought necessarily, but first thought could be a true thought of what is in you, that
your raw and rugged fucked-upness, confusedness, as well as, maybe, something greater,
relatively speaking, something enlightened and insightful. And in first thought could be all of
those things. It could be absolutely shocking; and, it could be absolutely complimenting. Again,
that you can’t ask a question at this point a question about first thought. Once you ask a question
about it, it’s the voice of the second thought.
The gentleman in the glasses. Oh, you both have glasses. The closer.
Q, male: Does this then constitute mindlessness, to have one first thought constantly?
CTR: This is not regarded as a process of practice, particularly, but this is regarded as a process
of guidance, in the sense that you have a first thought, have a flash or spark of what you are
about, who you are, what you are. You rediscover your mind as what your mind might be, what
it is. This is not regarded as a continual practice, but a starting point.
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Q, Male: I see that I’m continually sneaking in the back door whenever possible, finagling
myself. And it seems to be, what you’re talking about, is some way that we can be open to
recognizing this flash, this spark. Picking up on some magnetism that exists there, and doesn’t
exist with all of this other stuff that immediately follows.
CTR: Well, what we are talking at this point is that we are not purely looking for mystical
experience of the “first thought is best thought” particularly. We are talking about a very
ordinary and sensible way of looking at ourselves, and find out what is
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our mind. Do we have a mind at all, or not? If you have a mind, that is your mind. That happens
very simply, very directly. We are not particularly talking about the higher ideals that have been
discussed in the scriptures as such, particularly. But in order to find out the training the mind
process, we need a basic ground, foundation as to realize who we are, what we are. The only way
to find out is to just look at it. There you are. You probably hate it, and probably you love it.
Then, so what? That’s it; that’s you. Good old you. That seems to be the basic point of what we
are talking about.
“First thought and second thought” is problematic language, by making the whole thing sound
too esoteric or something or other. But we are not talking in those terms. In connection with
training the mind, we are talking about just that, which is you. Look at you, and find out you.
Just look. That doesn’t probably bring any further spiritual ecstasy or extra depression
particularly, because you know yourself already anyway. But it is necessary to have that kind of
attitude that who you are, what you are.
And you might ask the question “Is this good” if you find who you are, or “is this bad?” No
comment. We haven’t even gotten to that level yet, by saying what is good or what is bad. That
comes later, in fact. But before we find out whether we are good or bad, we have to find out who
we are in the beginning. And that is the beginning point that we have to really look into, that
situation.
And in many cases we may be deceived by being told, trying to be good before we know who we
are. And you be condemned before we know who you are that you are terrible, trying to reform
yourself. That is been always the problem which undermines our intelligence and sharpness,
insightfulness, whatever, that we are being led into a crippled situation by a certain
condemnation: that you don’t know how to carry yourself beautifully. “It’s bad. Try to be good
and try to carry yourself beautifully.” And trying to be intelligent and try to dispel your
ignorance. But the problem that we end up, that we have here is that, in fact, we have no idea
who we are, actually, who are doing those things.
So before we get any of those affectations, so to speak, that we have to know who we are and
what we are, which is just “first thought is best thought.” Not “best” in this case is a tricky word.
It does not mean to say that the first thought is a good thought, or bad thought, but the best you
can ever find, without any reference point. So, therefore, the word “best” in this case is used
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neutral. Like “that was great”, “great” in the sense of maybe “appallingly bad” or
“tremendously, excitably good.” We are talking about in terms of energy in terms of “best” here.
You have the best flash of your first thought as much as you have, rather than that you are a good
person or bad person. And that seems to be the basic point of “first thought is best thought” as
just a flash. [Laughs.]
Q, female: I don’t seem to understand how I could ever answer the question “who am I?”
because I’m not a static entity. You would almost have to ask me, give me a certain situation, or
in relationship to what people. It seems to me that I’d be many different people, depending on
the situation. So how could I ever have a first thought about myself unless you also define the
situation or the people?
CTR: Well, I think that seems to be the basic point. That very situation is part of your life. One
can’t say that that situation was purely rehearsal, and purely an attempt to try to define further
things. But that very situation is your situation. It belongs to your world. And that’s it. It doesn’t
matter if the situation is amiable, or the situation is wretched. It doesn’t really matter; but that
situation is yours, your situation. So, from this point of view, the whole attitude is trying to
utilize every situation that you have ever experienced in your life — usable, workable, productive
— rather than you are looking for a certain particular situation and rejecting a lot of the others,
which is a waste of time. So that very situation of experience is your situation, is belongs to you,
it’s your, whether it’s good or bad. But it’s still a “first thought is best thought” situation.
Q: While I have the mike, might I ask you: did I understand you to say in the beginning that
there are people who have a sense of panic about whether they exist? [Laughter.]
CTR: That’s right. [Laughter.]
Q: It seems to me — I consider myself a fairly introspective person — but my panic has been the
very opposite. It seems to me that the basic anxiety of most people is the moment of nonexistence, because every one who exists also realizes he is threatened with non-existence. So
why is that not the basic panic?
CTR: Well, we’re saying the same thing. We’re saying the same thing, actually, that if they feel
that they don’t exist, that is non-existence. Which means that you panic on your non-existence.
Q: Does that mean that the basic human condition is that everything that exists also realizes that
they are threatened with non-existence? It’s inescapable.
CTR: That is one of the dharmas that Buddha taught: is egolessness, that you don’t exist. And
it’s regarded as wisdom. [Laughter.]
Q, Female: I seem a lot not to be able to separate what I feel from what I think. I’m just
wondering if, like when you’re talking about “your first thought is your best thought” or “your
mind thinking” is your mind separate, or is my mind separate from what I’m feeling? Like, is
there a split?
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CTR: It doesn’t matter. Once we try to sort all of this out, it’s going to be very complicated.
And we’ll probably have to employ a hundred philosophers with a thousand laboratories to look
into the whole thing. That’s too costly, and a waste of a lot of people’s time. I think that you are
here; that’s what you are. And, whether you are not here or whether you are here, is the question.
Q, Male: It seems that you constantly refer to the process of meditation as a gradual process,
which seems to be a warning that there’s no quick awakenings. But it also seems that that
provides a lot of security, the feeling of process. Can you suggest a way to deal with that
problem?
CTR: Well, I think that process is very painful, particularly that we be trained to drive an
automatic shift rather than a manual. You have all kind of tricks that you don’t have to wait for
too long before you get what you want. And I think those kind of tricks have been expanded into
spiritual trips as well, that for a while ago, all kinds of spiritual freaks and psychologists and socalled American mystical people have been looking around all over the world that who has the
quickest rapid-path message. And that has been always the problem. But I think the question
here is that the gradual path might present you as some kind of security, a promise of some kind,-
that you’re doing a really solid job, like you’re being a really good citizen. But at the same time
you find that it’s not painless. A lot of ordeals takes place, problems takes place constantly. You
find that maybe “this is it!” and then you find that wasn’t. And there are all kinds of processes
that are being pushed in your oven, it takes place all the time. So I think as long as we’re stuck
with the gradual path, that even the security begin to arise itself out, and there’s no problems
with that.
Q, Female: It seems that the first thought leads very smoothly into the second thought, and I
wonder if there’s a definite end to it, where it goes back into spaciousness?
CTR: Well, second thought is usually very juicy.
Q: Sometimes, it’s like at the second thought that you realize “Oh, I’m in the second thought,
now I could go back to the space.” But I wonder if there’s a place before you get to that juicy
second thought.
CTR: I don’t think so. You see, you can’t create an artificial first thought by providing a third
thought. One has to let it go, completely one has to disown, completely so then true first thought
could begin again. And one can’t, you know, strategize.
Q: So you have to let yourself go into the second thought?
CTR: That is the basic message, it seems to be, is the sort of leap, or opening, or goal.
Q, male: Rinpoche, on the idea of the first, second, third thought, and whatever, where does the
watcher take perspective?
CTR: Second thought.
10
The gentleman at the wall – if we could call it a wall)
Q, male: Using the space you develop in meditation, I seem to become aware of my body
functioning logically in response to its built-in subsistence autonomic nervous system, and so on.
And it does a very good job of it, even to the extent of working with moral judgments, good
behavior. It knows from its memory bank that this is a good behavior, this is a bad behavior. It
does it automatically. What I wonder is where the resolve of a bodhisattva or a buddha come?
Which part of the mind — is that mind where that decision is made to devote your life to saving
every sentient being? How does that relate to the anatta concept?
CTR: I think the question of being a buddha or bodhisattva begins right at the beginning. There
is a very interesting threshold that not knowing who you are and what you are, and somehow
there is knowing who you are and what you are at the same time. That level that when you have
no idea of who you are and what you are, then you panic. And the panic creates a space, an
openness. And then you have some kind of understanding that you are not who you are, what
you are. At that level, that interjection of the — whatever you’d like to call it – that thing –
happens.
So, I think it happens at the beginning, and then as you proceed your path with the second
thought and your struggles and your artificiality goes on, then at some point or another there is
also another gap. That you begin to find that you can also relate with the world as you relate with
yourself at the same time, as if in the same way. So it falls two parts: that at the beginning, that
panic, and then insightfulness; and then there’s a regular dualistic things happen with one’s path,
and then there’s also gap at the same time afterwards.
Q: In Buddhist thought, is there a realm whence these– …
CTR: Is there what?
Q: Is there a realm or is there
CTR: round? [Audience: no realm] Oh, realm
Q: an area where these magnificent thoughts arise – the thoughts of the Buddha, the resolve to
save the world – takes birth. It seems to be so outside what is going on in the world as such.
CTR: Well I think that world itself brings that way, that if you’re actually in communication
with the world properly that that experience happens. Otherwise you can’t have any openness,
except at the level of one’s dream, one’s imagination. So that the more that you are wakeful,
insightful, the more that you are involved with the world completely, that you are painfully
involved, very personally involved with the world.
Q, male: I wonder whether the first thought is actually a thought when it first happens, or is it
only like first thought in relation to a second thought? I mean is it like just instinct when it is first
given birth to?
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CTR: I think it’s much simpler to call it a thought. We can have all kind of analytical and all
kind of scientific answers: maybe that first thought is not really fully thought, and first thought is
maybe just a shadow that comes ahead of the whole thing. But I think that’s too complicated in
terms of professional experiential person is concerned, so that’s why it is known as thought. It’s
still a ripple in the pond, which you could be said as wave at the same time.
Q: I mean it seems like, at least in some of my experiences, almost directly connected to actions
in the body.
CTR: Yeah. Gesundheit. [Laughter.]
Q: I’m saying it in the sense that it doesn’t like purely in the head.
CTR: That’s true. Gesundheit. [Laughs.]
Q, Female: During the tantra course, you referred to an idea of having to think twice [laughter],
and I’m wondering what the difference is between thinking twice and having a second thought.
CTR: I think they’re saying the same thing. Second thought in this case is not necessarily that
you believe in that you have the first thought so therefore everything’s okay. But thinking twice
in this case is kind of, almost, you could say, is the twenty-fifth thought, that there is so many
exchanges taking place already when you are in the level of the twenty-fifth thought, then you’ve
thought twice. See what I mean? Well, you thought twice, because you have allowed already
space.
Q: Is that somehow different than the second thought being a doubt about the first thought?
CTR: Yeah, the immediate second thought is conceptual level, purely. But if you’re in the
hundredth or two hundred-fiftieth thought, then that repetition as such that even, quite safely we
could say, that your fiftieth thought is again becomes first thought because you have gone so far,
by begin to repeat yourself so much, and it doesn’t make any sense anymore, it’s just diluted the
whole thing.
Q: Then is it possible to think twice without having a second thought?
CTR: No. [Laughter.] Sneaky, eh?
Well maybe we should close our happening here tonight. And there is a discussion that
happens here tomorrow, and maybe you could sharpen your –whatever. There’s a further
announcement, one quick one, quicky one.
Woman: This is about interviews. Unfortunately, Rinpoche won’t be able to give any this
seminar–
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Talk 2 Training the Mind RMDC, VCTR 0874. checked by RWalker 11/16/12
Mindfulness of form(s). “Psychosomatic body.” All is experience. It’s a world of mind.
[Synopsis: Appreciation. Taking joy in practice. Practice: continuity with life. Sense of being on
cushion, experience. Being physically here. Blissing out is not the point. 4 foundations of
mindfulness. Attitude: just be. Not looking for feedbags. Shamatha: development of peace,
understood as simplicity, no unnecessary complications. Everything considered as experience.
Therefore, beginning point is mindfulness of body. Experience of forms. Mindfulness of form.
Q&A: experience of form/body not an investigation, like in awareness movement, but careless.
No promises. Nowness, not “hereness.”] [This synopsis is provisional.]
—
Since we discussed yesterday (the), developing basic mind to relate with oneself and one’s
world, the next question is a sense of appreciation. According to the text, appreciation is
expressed in the form of joy that you are engaging yourself into a certain particular practice
which is very definite and very concrete, and personal. That particular notion of appreciation
obviously comes from realization of oneself in the metaphor (?manner) of first thought is best
thought we discussed yesterday, knowing who you are what you are.
The question of appreciation here is not necessarily or, not at all, in fact, some kind of comic
relief that you feel better because you’ve gone through the worst. For that matter this notion of
appreciation is not so much of trying to jazz up something that you feel low down and you feel
not in a good state of mind, not in a good spirit, so you like to build up as much as you can. And
that also entails the question of telling yourself that this is a very sensible thing to do, practicing
meditating is a very sensible thing to do, therefore one should suppress all the other conflicting
questions, particularly. So the basic question, here, is that it is not so much of trying to build
oneself up to any particular situation but just simply appreciating it.
And the next question is “appreciating what? What is there to appreciate?” Appreciation, at this
point, is somewhat acknowledging oneself as person who is committed to sitting practice of
meditation and basic awareness that continues the rest of your life, and also appreciation of sense
of being, in some sense, that you have taken a certain attitude to commit yourself into (to?) this
particular sitting practice that you are here. Physically you are sitting on your meditation
cushion. Sense of being. A certain sense of existence.
When we talk about a certain sense of existence, we are talking in terms of a very simple
situation, that you exist at that very moment, at that very level, that you are sitting down on the
floor and meditating or just about to meditate. No mystical exaggerated metaphysical
connotations apply here. It’s just a simple existence, that you are there as much as what we are
doing right now: I am here and you are there. You sit on your earth, quite rightly so, and you are
passionately listening and passionately wondering, and that is a sense of being. You are being
here in fact whether you are miles away from here, and your thoughts may be wandering around
about all over the country: Alaska, or San Francisco, or New Mexico, New York City, or
Boulder, Red Feather Lakes [laughter], whatever. But nevertheless you are here. In fact you are
here. That’s a kind of physical awareness that you sitting, that you are aware of what you are,
13
including your mental states of dream world, daydreaming world. Physically you are here. You
are simply here.
Psychologically it is questionable. But somehow once we trying to make that is defined situation
that psychologically you are here at the same time, is very hard work. In fact, we could go as far
as to say that unless you attain enlightenment you are not psychologically here. So that’s the big
project we are trying to work on. But we have something to work with; that is to say, that you are
physically here. That is psychosomatic body anyway. That is something to begin with, something
to work on.
The disciplines that been handed down by generations to generations, from the both lineages of
the Kagyu tradition and Nyingma tradition, at this point it boils down to the same thing: it’s a
question of learn how to be here. And a lot of cheap philosophical attitudes one can take, by
saying “Be here now; everything is okay. And you are being here, that’s great.” But we are not
talking about in terms of “be here now because everything is a rose garden. Is fantastic, we be
here now, and everything’s smooth, and pleasurable,” particularly. And often the notion of
meditation traditions have been misrepresented by saying that people who meditate are trying to
get into a blissful state of mind, and it is positive thinking. “Those who have lost a meaningful
life should go and meditate so they find purpose of life, and purpose of life is to be happy.” At
that point, somehow, we are missing the point.
A meditator who would like to begin their practice should sit without planning, should sit
meaningfully without being a big deal. You could sit on your floor properly, opposed to your
perching on your floor. You can do that just very simply, whereas when you begin to question
whether you are sitting properly or not, then you begin to perch. And one just sit very simply,
directly.
And then, there is a sense of being, obviously, a sense of existence that you are there, you are
breathing, you are sitting, you feel your head, you feel your arms, you feel your shoulder. One
doesn’t have to go through the process of trying to build up a sensory awareness program here,
particularly, which is quite a different approach than this one. But once you sit, obviously you
feel that you are sitting, which is extremely simple.
And then, there is traditions of practice of what’s known as four foundations of mindfulness
practices, which maybe comes to you simultaneously, or maybe comes to you gradually,
whatever. That basic point of sitting practice of meditation is to sit, actually sit properly. The
complications of thought patterns and confusing with related with the techniques of all kinds,
however they come up, however they go away, those are just the mental creations of just thought
process, rather than meditative insight as such, at all.
You can take two types of attitude: One is “just do it”, one is “just wait.” And, you can wait; you
sit down properly and then you wait. Even with the practice, even with the discipline, technique,
you still trying to wait something to happen, or maybe you trying to wait nothing to happen, and
thinking “this is it,” but still you are waiting for something or other. The other attitude is “just to
be,” which is the correct one. One just sit and be. Marpa once said: “Meditating is trying to look
14
at your own eyes without using mirror.” That seems to be the point. We are trying to look at our
own eyes without using mirror. The only way to do is just to be there.
It is absolutely necessary for a meditator, or if anybody’s seriously interested in, that they should
not get any feedbags of promises from the teachings. Maybe they might experience some
landmark guidance as to what particular starting point you are engaging yourself in.
This first portion of practice of meditation is known as shamatha, which literally means
“development of peace,” But in this case, the development of peace in the sense of simplicity
rather than pleasure as such, which is one of biggest misunderstandings when we talk about
peace on earth. “May the lofty forces should bring peace on earth. We are talking about
happiness – plenty of food, plenty of clothes, plenty of money” — which is a big
misunderstanding of mystical meaning of peace of any schools. When we talk about, instead of
peace, even, for that matter, state of tranquility, we are talking purely in terms of simplicity —
uncomplicated, just a state of being which has no extra attachment, detachment around it, so it is
seemingly peaceful, simple rock sitting on the ground.
There is a sense of directness involved when we talk about that idea of state of peace. Feel one’s
body. That body exists, not in the sense of sensorial practices: “Oh now I’m feeling my toes, now
I’m feeling my ears, my temple and my shoulder, my heart and everythings, blah blah.” We just
simply feel our body. Body sits there on the ground, and you are that body.
And metaphysically, it has been said that such attitude of your body is psychosomatic body, it
doesn’t really matter what the book says, so it is your mind’s body sitting on it. It doesn’t matter
which part is mind, which part is your body, really. What makes a difference, anyway? That
everything we experience in our life is experiential, needless to say. If we don’t have experience
of life, we don’t have life; we are reduced into corpse. As long as we are not a corpse, that we
experience our life. So one can’t go beyond that, and anything else, that when you experience
your life, you experience your life. It’s experience, rather than whether it’s facts or figures
doesn’t really matter. You are experiencing life.
Maybe there’s a certain level of facts and figures, whether you are experiencing life as
pleasurable in the seventy-five percent and painful twenty-five percent, or the other way around,
whatever. Even those facts and figures are also experiential — that you experience, you have
logical conclusions, that things exist independent of imagination. We feel better; we feel more
scientific. But even the scientific discoveries are also experience at the same time.
So that body that we have, we might have blond, dark, reddish hairs; we might have light
complex, or dark complex; we wear red clothes, yellow shirt, blue jeans – whatever we wear,
whatever we have on our body, whatever we possess in our basic state of being, that is
experience. When you wear clothes, you experience of you’re wearing clothes; you don’t really
wear them, as such, really. And if you’re trying to find out, you try to find out through the
channel of experience. So any conclusions come after experientially that I said, “I am so and so,
because I had the experience of the someone took my photograph, and happened to find myself
wearing a necktie,” which is experience; it’s a photograph of experience, in fact, rather than that
you are actually wearing a necktie.
15
When your body sit, it is experience; it is body sitting. So let us not complicate that beyond than
necessary. It’s not practical to go into details like that. You can waste lots of time but, still,
conclusions become experience. So that is why the world is known as world of mind, obviously,
quite rightly so. This experience of ours, sitting on the meditation cushion, trying to feel the
body, experience the body, experience of breathing, is something that we should work on. That’s
the, what’s known as the development of peace, simply saying that the development of
unnecessary complications of pain, potential pain, but simplifying into one pointedness, which is
development of peace. At that seems to be one of the basic points of the foundations of
mind[fulness] of body. That is the beginning starting point of shamatha experience is the
development of mindfulness of body.
That techniques maybe vary: working on your breathing experience, or quite possibly
sometimes, that even breathing begins to become irrelevant; you just sit there, but you are still
experiencing: experiencing form, experiencing atmosphere, experiencing a sense of life, and
experiencing even sense of some kind of purpose, and experiencing sense of time, experiencing
sense of temperature. Also you can experience how solid that ground you’re sitting on. Maybe
you’re sitting on very solid earth, like where you’re sitting right now, but you can experience all
kinds of different levels. There may be a big hole underneath your body, that could collapse any
moment. You find yourself in the dark pit. Or you are sitting on a crystal rock, that can’t be
penetrated, never been explored, so you can’t bury yourself underneath this. You can’t create
yourself more hole, if you’re shy of the world, because the seat underneath you is made out of
solid crystal rock. You can’t dig hole and dive into it.
All kinds of experience takes place, but all of those are relevant experience that, we can’t quite
say such experiences are particularly neurotic or, for that matter, we can’t say that those
experiences are particularly sanity expressions, as such, alone, but such experiences are just
experience. It’s real and true and direct experience that we have. And maybe that’s the best way
to begin from this point. And awareness of the form, the mindfulness of that form: The four
foundations of mindfulness — what we discussed tonight, is mindfulness of the form.
You are welcome to ask question. 24:11
Q1F: I have questions from two different statements you made. My first one was: is the sense of
joy and excitement that you talk about in the sense of appreciation indulging oneself in spiritual
materialism?
A1: That’s very smart of you. Well, it is always good to check that, to begin with, whatever you
hear, but at this point, within that kind of attitude of possibility of spiritual materialism might
happen, that you might have the attitude of “love and lightys,” whatever, that having had some
kind of warnings as to that situation is possible and might happen to you. And then you have a
new discovery that you actually are not purely trying to secure yourself in ego-oriented situation,
which is spiritual materialism, actually is, that you find yourself somewhat sort of selfless joy,
that such joy and excitement is not particularly glorifying anybody, anything, oneself or the
others, but there is something clicked. Once you clicked something properly you feel good good,
not because you did it or somebody else did it, but there is something taking place. There is some
16
kind of connection is being made, therefore you feel more of wholesome rather than spiritual
materialistically joyful, which is regarded as very hollow and has orientation towards trying to
build oneself up rather than that you have experienced anything at all.
Q2: Ok, and the second question actually arose at the time that Muktananda was speaking to us,
but it seemed to apply to your comment on “meditation is trying to get into a blissful state of
mind as sort of a pitfall, because I distinctly felt that when he talked about the experience of the
guru’s grace, that only the guru could give you, which would lead to a stilling of all thoughts,
and experience of love immediately, that there was a bit of sensationalism that I couldn’t quite
connect with from him being, you know, that he would say something like that to a naïve
audience, so that a lot of people might think: “oh, I’m going to go meditate now so that I can
have that blissful experience that he’ll give me. And I wondered where you view that as coming
from in his tradition?
A2: He’s coming from India somewhere [laughter]. But India is a big country, and all kinds of
things could come out of India.
I think we have this kind of problem, that I heard a report that Muktananda was going to spend
one year in America, and then he’s going to go back to home. And there is one big problem of
that kind of relationship with a teacher and a student. That it is enormously generous on the part
of Muktananda to spend one year in America; and then he’s going back home. [Laughs.] That
Americans can’t take just one year’s chunk of time, heavy-handed blast of thick chocolate bar,
for one year, and then suddenly there’s nothing exists.
I think that’s one of the problems that we have here – is that question of a lot of the oriental
teachers have experienced or regarded their occidental students somewhat sensational-minded
and somewhat looking for easy way to get around, and for the very fact nobody drives stickshift; everybody drives automatic car. That there is obviously a yearning towards automatation
[sic], even spiritually, which has become one of the biggest problems. And, consequently,
promises that be made is become cheap – not necessarily that such teacher is a cheap person
fundamentally, but at the same time, that the understanding of the mentality of this country is,
needs enormous research work. And the teachers come out, or any teachers who are
experienced, American-student-type-person, are not represent real America. They are just a
certain type of Americans who come out and willing to wear loin cloth in India. But they are not
true Americans.
And such problems become big problem, in fact, and particularly, spirituality is becoming a big
deal. [Laughs.] There is big problem actually exists. And I think that the tradition where
Muktananda is coming out, coming through, from, is tradition of magicians of some kind of
tantric master lineage. That he probably didn’t bother to research America, and he’s relying on
his magic. And he doesn’t have to say anything profound, particularly, but he could babble
anything, and assured that his magical power would turn anybody on, which would be happening
a lot, a great deal, at this point. So, it is kind of, the tantric traditions approach of automatation
[sic] coming to America automatation, and meeting together creating a spiritual atomic bomb.
[Laughter.]
17
Q3M: It seems like in part like if Muktananda comes here for a year is very much the same kind
of level of an American student like going to India, and going to see a guru and saying, “I’ll stay
a few weeks if you could give me some teachings; and, maybe if they’re really good I can stay
two more weeks,” but it’s not really there in a way.
What you’re — The question of the joy and it’s relationship to spiritual materialism, you said
“suppressing conflicting questions.” When that’s given up, it seems like there’s a quality of
energy that comes out of that, that is part of like that joy, as with being here now, there’s a
question “if I can be here now then everything is going to be great” or “if I can work with my
body through an awareness approach — feel my ears and feel my toes – then there’s a quality of
“good” or “that’s great.” It seems like with just sitting, I don’t know if it’s a neutral state, but
you’re just sitting, you’re not judging your sitting as being good, or your sitting as being bad, or
that you’re feeling anything in particular in that kind of way.
A3: I think so, yes. I think the question is that there is a sense of carelessness in a positive sense –
– not frivolity or mindless, but careless of a certain particular type, that one just does it. You just
sit and do it.
And in fact, that I have experienced that, that with people who took part in the last dathun, sat
here, have some ideas of what they’re going to do, but at same time there are a lot of questions as
to what they’re about to do and what they are going to get out of this. And the questions thrown
back and forth, constantly all the time with them. And obviously that they know quite clearly
they could leave any time. [Laughs.] They are not committed to institution by signed up by their
parents. And there is enormous freedom they have. And strangely, that people have lost heart,
and they have regained their heart at the same time, while they sat for dathun, for one month, and
they somehow still stuck together. They sit; they finished it– heroically of course – [Laughs;
laughter.] But I think that has something to say about the whole thing, is that such situations
exist.
And obviously we find in the Zen traditions, people sit for many days of seshins, have some kind
of experience happens, that there is no promise or no particular purpose, but one still just does it.
And questions still exist of course, even after you have accomplished masterfully, that “what
happened?” And, “Is that good for me to do,” your friend might ask you, “If you going through
that thing, what happens to you? Should I do it?” and maybe your answer would be, “If you like.
You know, there’s nothing’s happening there particularly” [Laughter.] And in fact that turns on
your friend as well into it, some way strangely. There is a kind of, some kind of magic involved
with that, and particularly that level of noncommercial, non salesmanship kind of approach
which might be the most cunning way of advertising. [Laughs. Laughter]
Q3: I’ve been trying, the people who have been here from the dathun, I’ve been going around
trying to ask them how they liked it. [Laughter.] I haven’t gotten much.
Do you feel like the awareness movement, or the growth movement, in a ways, although it
strives for helping people get in touch with themselves, in a way is very dangerous, because of
reinforcing your ego?
18
A3: I don’t think so. If you approach it in a certain, very special way, that reinforcement of egoneed is sort of testimonial kind of report, which usually, testimonial is supposed to be positive
thing, how great it was. But still, I don’t see any problems, particularly with ego reinforcement,
as long as person begins to sit and practice, maybe with ego-ambition style at the beginning, but
then something begins to turn around and your whole trip begins to fall apart as you do it
properly. And I think that’s the most painful part a lot of people feel, and particularly those who
are already involved in a lot of spiritual trips, and they had experience of doing that for many
times, again and again. And they find this particular style of just sitting and doing nothing is
somewhat, they find it devastating.
And we had last time a lady came from California somewhere. She was rather fat and wearing a
kind of bedspread outfit. [Laughter, inappropriate.] And she was very sweet and very kind. And
she realized that this particular approach, what we are doing, is not on the level of covering up
one’s problems but exposing it. And she saw that as Satan worship, worshipping Satan, that you
are turning yourself away from light and you are advocating darkness. And she was very freaked
out, and she left.
Q4F: Rinpoche the way you spoke about Muktananda sort of flashed to, I also felt that way sort
of about Karmapa’s tour. Could you maybe speak a little bit about him? [Laughter.]
A4: Well, for one thing, it’s a little difficult to speak on behalf of the future, because it hasn’t
happened yet. You can make comments on the past, which is much easier to do. If there is no
textbook, you can’t write commentary. [continued on side two]
Q4: I mean about the idea of him just coming for a year.
A4: Well, I think the way Karmapa handles himself is maybe similar approach, but fortunately
Karmapa doesn’t have lots of American students around Rumtek. And it’s being protected by
some unknown coincidence, that very few people are allowed to go there because of the visa.
And so consequently that he doesn’t have that many visitors coming to his monastery as being a
popular Western hang-out ashram. And I think there is something about that, which is that his
situation is being protected. And another situation is that I don’t think Karmapa is particularly
into particularly love and light of anything at all. He’s into his own tradition; he speaks very
boldly and very directly, and obviously he takes pride in his own lineage, and he looks at himself
many times and makes fun of that as well. Wait and see what happens. You shouldn’t rush.
(42:18)
Q5M: I seem to find myself vacillating between waiting for something and being when I sit.
Does the sense of appreciation apply to that whole thing?
A5: Are you one of the dathun people?
Q5: No. [Laughter.]
A5 No? [Laughter.] Well, the question is – one doesn’t try. And one doesn’t try necessarily,
doesn’t mean you don’t try therefore you should wait. I think there is a problem of too much
19
future orientation. And if you are present oriented, then you just do it. That keep tracking in
order to get to somewhere else, but if you think of your destination, probably you cease to track.
It’s a very blunt approach to life, very blunt, and very realistic, and there is no romance involved
except the joy of the present, that such thing does exist, that you can keep tracking, which is in
itself somewhat heroic; you are marching, but that’s okay. Nothing can go wrong with that. You
are still reminded by your irritations anyway.
Q6F: [45 minutes] Rinpoche, can the term “being in the now” sometimes be misused? Could you
speak on that?
A6: Well, be “here” is worse term than “being in the now,” is in fact a better one. When we
talking about being here – here — then here is associated with the now, which is if you have now
that experience is this experience, it’s here, which is my territory. You can’t be in the present
without me existing, me watching the nowness. So I think “being here” is one of the biggest
problems, as far as terms, terminology is concerned, rather than “now”. Now is, very
conveniently, is a very good word, and now is just that, rather than this, particularly. Now is that
without being here. And there is no reference point involved. Be here now, which destroys the
whole purpose of being here now.
Q6: I had a different perspective on that when I was asking the question. It seems that my
personal problem in relating to this thing is that the word “now” creates a great amount of fear, a
great amount of misunderstanding as to what now is, because it seems to creates a choice that
I’m not quite sure—[VCTR interrupts her]
A6: That’s it! I think that’s great, because then you are left with no choice, at the same time. And
you’re supposed to have a choice, which is your interpretation of what now is. But at the same
time, now sort of, has a sense of emptiness, and sense of nonexistence, at the same time a sense
of fullness at the same time, as well. That’s it, that seems to be the point that we’re trying to get
at. It is so powerful thing, powerful word, now, is so powerful word, that it doesn’t have any
particular connections, and therefore one begins to feel somewhat threatened. And the fear
comes from wanting to stick to the past or the future, obviously, and you have difficulty in
ungluing yourself from either the future or the past. And it is not particularly pleasant. Not
particularly painful, but it is demanding. (48:42)
Q7F: In sitting meditation, we sit and hold a posture and perhaps we have a desire to scratch or
move our legs, unless it’s really, you know, we’re in pain, we just hold position. Now when we
move into life, when I move into life, on one occasion it was just the other day, I found I was
feeling very irritated and nervous, and I expressed that by fidgeting, doing that. So I decided just
to keep my hands still, and then I could really get the feeling of my irritation more clearly by not
expressing it as fidgeting. Is that in any way a step from sitting meditation to just moving out
into everyday life?
A7: I think so, in a sense, but at the same time, that a student who sits are not particularly
recommended to hold their irritations to the extreme. And the result you might find you can’t
stand up and walk even, [unclear, you will have the whole thing ??wordtions]. But it is
recommended to change your postures but not give into the level of inquisitive mind trying to
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manipulate you. The first warning is false warning; second warning is false warning; maybe third
warning is actual mechanical, physical one. And that’s the traditional approach to the whole
thing, and which actually relates to the life, very much so, as you said. That when you sit, you
don’t just sit away from the world, away from the experience, but you relate with your day-today life in terms of meditation in action.
Q8F: (50:50) I was wondering if you could say something about physical manifestations during
sitting that are, to me, sort of, in my experience, sensational types of heat of coming off and heart
beating, sort of just strange things that I consider as hindrances, and want to, or feel should be
suppressed or ignored. I don’t know quite how to handle it.
A8: Well I think that’s basically the technique, that you have to let go more of the technique, that
you don’t hold yourself tight to begin with. The sense of openness, sense of casualness is
necessary when you begin to sit.
Q8: These things seem to occur with me at moments when I am just getting into rather relaxed
state.
A8: Well I think that is a very very sensitive thing, whether you are watching yourself being
relaxed or whatever. It’s a very delicate matter. That there is a sense of leap is necessary. Leap.
And, having had already experienced a sense of leap, then one usually just let things come and
go. Bodily sensations — they come and they go — and one doesn’t try to do anything with it
particularly
Q8: Yeah, I suppose I was thinking in terms of when these things happen is judging them as
being as “this is the right track” or “this is the wrong track” or, you know – (VCTR interrupts]
A8: Well both of those, that’s your thought. Just be aware of those questions as just your thought
pattern rather than anything else. You see then you find yourself in a completely free level. If
you can label everything that happens in your state of mind in the discursive thought, and say
“this is thought, this is thought, this is thought, this is thought,” so that everything becomes
thought. And the strange enough one begins to realize the right and wrong doesn’t actually exist.
And the safe and not-safe doesn’t actually exist, that everything is regarded as thought pattern,
which needs a certain sense of bravery.
Q8: So be open to these things, just –
A8: Well, regard them as thought patterns; let them pass through. Easy come, easy go.
[Laughter.] Maybe that’s your motto.
Q9M: Rinpoche tonight I heard you say several times that we should develop this awareness that
we do exist. Could you discuss this in the context with the many times I’ve heard you try to
impress upon us that we don’t exist?
A9: Well that seems to be the basic point, actually, that we do exist. You are there, the chef, and
you are there as a person. And that is just a simple way of approaching the whole thing. But then,
21
once you begin to reconciliate with yourself, your existence, actually you are there; then you
begin to twist around the whole thing. You begin to find – “Wait a minute. What is this all
about?” You begin to find that you actually don’t actually exist at all, but that’s not particularly a
problem. It’s more a question of duration of gradual understanding.
That you can’t experience nonexistence, nonego, if you can’t experience ego or existency. So
that seems to be the basic point. So at beginners level there is no harm to experience that there is
something exists, not in the sense of tripping out in being an egocentric person, or trying to plan
yourself of going to become the world’s dictator or anything like that. But just in the simple level
you exist, because you sit on a meditation cushion. You breathe. That’s okay.
Q10M: You talked about feeling one’s body when you sit as being very simple and very direct,
that there’s no “how to” do it in terms of trying to get particular techniques of “now I feel my
toes and now my knees” so that it seems to be sort of a self existing thing, like you said,
“experiencing is experiencing.” So feeling one’s body is just feeling one’s body. So why do we
need to sit to do that/
A10: I can’t think any better way to do than that, because if you walk, if you drive, if you eat, if
you sleep, can you bring up some kind of activities which is similar to sitting that is impartial
state of being?
Q10: You mean without particular physical entertainments?
A10: Yeah, yeah.
Q10: …that would distract us from having that feeling? So the feeling of sitting is a state of
feeling our body in a stable state —
A10: …In a natural state. You are not particularly bound to any particular activities as such.
You’re just sitting. Even if you drive and sit, you are driving. Or if you hang out in your street
corner, hang out in your street corner looking for entertainment.
We should close our happening tonight.
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8/20/74 Talk #3 Mindfulness of livelihood. corrected
Synopsis: Further attitude: sense of survival / experiencing life-force, pulse, perceptions, body
surviving. Certainty about being alive. Bodily pain and wretchedness, sense of message of death,
experienced as aliveness. Panic is aliveness. Discomfort brings aliveness, mindfulness of
livelihood. Mystical experience that is earth-bound, not trying to get “higher”. Not trying to rise
above dirty ordinary everyday experience. Enlightened ones as only ones who show up. Not
trying to escape basic bodily reference points, which brings hell. Coming down from
dreamworld into everyday schedule. Discovering sanity in the midst of insanity, complaint,
chaos. Life in the midst of threat. This trick of sense of being, being alive, brings onepointedness. Genuineness: not afraid to be a fool. Chaos as reminder of how life is felt.
Emerging from dathun. Tell your family: “I slowed down.”
—
Yesterday we discussed the question of form and the question of how to relate with the practice
physically, and the simplicity of being on earth. And we could continue to discuss the further
attitude that is required, not only just purely sitting on earth but sense of, sense of survival, sense
of life-force. That is connected with part of the breathing practice of meditation, and also there’s
the attitude of sense of being in the point of view of survival, that you are not particularly
reduced into a piece of earth when you sit and meditate, but you have your pulse, your heartbeat
and your body. And you can listen to sounds, you can see vision, you can feel the temperatures
around your body, sense of survival.
And that seems to be one of the basic point of awareness, mindfulness in this case, that you are
completely totally in touch with what happens in your system, as we discussed yesterday — not
in the level of sensory awareness style, particularly, but there is a sense of certainty that you are
alive. And strange coincidence actually happens with that is that usually when you feel that you
have the flu, fever, and you are sitting and meditating at the same time, that obviously at the
beginning that sense of wretchedness, but then you begin to realize the sense of having a body,
possessing a body, sense of aliveness, sense of living quality or for that matter that if you feel
there is pain in your joints, in your legs, in your knee, your back and your neck, there is a sense
of survival.
Because any pain that we experience, ordinarily is related with sense of death, that sickness is
close to approaching your death. And at the same time when you feel a sense of panic and
sickness, there is a feeling of life, that trying to push and force, sense of being, sense of wellbeing is tried to reaccumulate again. So there is a sense of being, actually takes place. And
particularly in the sitting practice of meditation whenever there is a sense of discomfort is
involved, that brings enormous sense of alive, or livelihood, as the second stage of foundations
of mindfulness is livelihood. There is a sense of alive, sense of survival notion, which brings also
obviously sense of a threat at the same time.
And this approach had to be very direct and very simple, extraordinarily simple, extraordinarily
literal, that we are not trying to bring out any mystical religious experiences in our practices of
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meditation, that we are not trying to gain pleasurable state of happiness of any kind, particularly,
or for that matter we are not seeking for pain deliberately or trying to punish ourselves
deliberately either. So there is a sense of struggle still goes on between body and sensation of a
body, body and sensation of body, and mind, relationship takes place constantly.
And sometimes such physical discomfort in sitting practice of meditation is generated from the
earth or the floor that you’re sitting on, that as if there is enormous magical power is begin to
transmit through your body, that the sickness of the earth is completely transmitted in your
system, that you feel hurt in your base of your body, and this pain and irritation begins to comes
up your spine, your arms, your leg, and your eyelid, and your head. That is not particularly
regarded as a mystical experience or something we should particularly cultivate, but those are the
natural tendencies that we experience a sense of alive.
You see, the point is that once we ignore life as reality, pain is reality, pleasure is reality, and we
are seeking for something higher spiritual goal of anything, then, the problem is that when we
have those difficulties, we tend to panic a great deal and we begin to find that we are maybe
losing our track, contacts, connections, our logic, our faith, and since we are not getting the ideal
hospitality that is being promised by the — whoever they are — [laughter]. Most of the problems
that we face in our life is not so much of unable to bring ourselves into a higher level of
spirituality, which actually doesn’t exist.
But there is this level of spirituality that exists, obviously, but not higher level of spirituality.
And the level of spirituality we are talking about, or we are experiencing ourselves, in the true
mystical experiences, that all the traditions agree on simultaneously, is the level of earth-boundness, that being with the earth, that being with the body, being with the trees, being with rocks,
being with the grasses, being with the water, being with the highway, being with the traffic
lights, being with the father, mother, policeman, your lawyer.
And those experiences we have, usually, are regarded as is “too dirty” from those who seek,
those whose snobby spiritual trip, and they are too low for you to even associate with them. One
should sneer at them, and look down upon them, and saying to yourself that “I’m above all this.”
And somehow, that by doing so that one is cutting off one’s tie with the basic sanity and one is
developing a dreamworld of insanity of some kind. So we have a problems with the usual
thinking pattern is anything is good is connected with heaven; anything is bad is connected with
the sewage system. [Laughter.] And that is just fiction. And somehow such logic doesn’t work,
particularly when you try to practice, such logic doesn’t work. It doesn’t happen that way.
And basic point here is that more sense of contacts, connections with earth in the sense of being
alive, you have pair of eyes, pair of nostrils, pair of ears, one mouth, two arms, two legs, that you
have this thing called “body” which some people refer to you as “Jack” or “Jill” whatever,
“Michael,” “Judy”, and it is you, whether you like it or not, and the more we try to drift away
from this “thing”, we end up in enormous trouble, problem. We think we are confused therefore
we trying to get away from it, but we are more confused trying to get away from the confusion
itself. So there is endless, without reference point of sanity. You’re running from one confusion
because another confusion is occurred, that creates enormous chain reactions of echo system.
That you find yourself finally nowhere and painfully nowhere, completely trapped in the bottom
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pit of hell, if you’d like to put it that way; completely claustrophobia, in “the nest of the Black
Widow.”
This morning, when I stepped out of my trailer, I sat up in a chair in the porch and looked
around. I said to myself, “How beautiful this place is. So many beautiful clouds and beautiful
trees and greeneries and everything. And there is distant people meditating in the tent. And
everything is fantastic and ideal! It’s a perfect world.” [Laughter.] But then, [pause, greater
laughter] the first message has arrived that somebody’s going to come up and talk to you about
business. That particular world somehow didn’t exist, or is sort of shrunked into a concept of you
feel a sense of being hassled. And but still, the clouds are there and everything’s there, but they
don’t exist; and they be sort of shrunked into this timing programming your scheduling.
And I find myself smiling at myself at the time, and also reflected what I am going to talk tonight
as well at the same time. So since we’re going to raise the question of feeling — livelihood – that
was the best message of all. That finally, those dreamy levels of appreciating the nature of
whatever are brought down into this level of that one has to relate to one’s schedule. And that is
best of all. And there is enormous sanity involved with that: that finally, you can’t hover around
or gallivanting around, but you are brought down, that your duty is to keep your schedule. And
there is no choice. People arrived already; you can’t kick them out.
Sometimes, a lot of truth of life is very confusing and very indignant to a lot of us. That we feel
we deserve more happiness, less hassle, and etceteras. But seeing that once we find ourselves in
the situation of complaining, that in the midst of complaining process you find yourself being
sane, suddenly. In the midst of enormous bundles of insanity, there is the sudden realization of
sanity, of you have to face this fact directly and very simply — precisely. And that is something
what we are talking about in this case, is sense of feeling; a sense of experiencing the experience
of being alive. Such a thing could happen in the midst of chaos.
And whenever there is more chaos, there is some tendency to check back usually happens. And
the checking back process becomes reality, clear reality. And all of those can be exemplified by
the sitting practice of meditation. That when you begin to sit and meditate, that you find there are
a lot of chaos, conflict, uncertainty, and also a sense of being a fool. But at the same time, you
begin to hear more sound, you being to see more sight, you being to feel more body, a sense of
being alive. Which is, we are slowly approaching towards the notion of sanity. Slowly and
slowly we are approaching towards the notion of sanity. And sanity in this case is having contact
with reality, as fullest, as much as possible, which is known as all kinds of fancy names of it. It’s
called enlightenment, liberation, freedom, buddhahood.

And quite possibly you find that, “Is this as simple as this?” “Is that as simple as this?” And also
you might say that, “I have to learn the next trick.” Well, it seems that is the next trick, and the
first trick at the same time. Is having a sense of being, life, which brings our mind into a one
focused-point of situation. When you actually sit, meditate, you actually do sit, properly. There is
no question about that. Even though you are maybe miles away from your cushion, but still you
sit. And strangely that you can keep both contacts – that being a hundred miles away from your
home, and you’re sitting on your meditation cushion—there’s some communication’s is be kept,
25
still. And you might call it a kind of schizophreniac level of communication is taking place —
being aware of the irritations of your body and being aware of your thoughts.
But there is a sense of life involved; there is a sense of reality, a sense of some sort of magic, if
you’d like to put it that way; a sense of some kind of force that is taking place, that you are
actually there. It doesn’t matter whether you have an enormous pornographic show in your mind
or you’re watching a battlefield in your mind or you’re having a delicious meal with your
parents, but you’re still sitting on your meditation cushion. That there is some connection; some
sanity is taking place, actually. The physical tokenism of sitting on the cushion actually is more
than tokenism: it’s a commitment; it has life in its own, it has some kind of truth and honesty and
genuineness involved. And that seems to be the basic point of the idea of life, alive, livelihood
aspect of the second foundation of mindfulness practice.
Questions are welcome. The gentleman in the hat.
Q1M: Rinpoche, would you say that the general chaos and insanity we have in this country
promotes the possibility of us actually finding our own sanity.
CTR. I think that’s what brought you here. And further sanity is, let’s see what happens.
Q1: Um. Thank you.
Q2M: I don’t know if I have a question, exactly.
CTR: Thank you.
Q2: Pardon?
CTR: Somebody else might have a question.
Q2M: Would you like to ask a question (addressing Q3)
Q3F: I was looking over what I wrote here, and I was confused with your description of pain
being connected to death and then I have panic and sickness connected to life. Could you talk
some more about that?
CTR: Well, I think actually they’re saying the same thing. Pain – when you say, “I’m sick,” that
is how you die. First you have to get sick, then you die. So there is always automatically panic,
or warning, or sense of unpleasantness. Your friends will say, “Oh, poor old thing. You feel bad,
let me take care of you,” or some level of that area. That you’ve been told that, you know, that as
if you are dying, even if you have a splinter in your thumb – and that’s terrible and somebody
rushes and pulls it out with tweezers, and that is trying to save you from death. And that is
usually the case
So any chaos that usually comes up in our life is an expression of that it is that you are
approaching death, and somebody is trying to save you from that. That is the problem — or the
26
promise or the reminder, actually, of how life is felt. And that seems to be the point. And from
that point, experiencing chaos in your life, panic or whatever, is also a reminder of life at the
same time. The death cannot be experienced unless you experience life. So life could be
experienced because of the intensity of demand toward death.
In the sitting practice of meditation, when you feel an ache in your legs, your knees, your back
and so forth is not very good, that you’re about to die, relatively speaking. It’s an approach
towards death, because you are sick, somewhat, with the pain. And that brings another struggle
that you try to live, you try to meditate, try to live at the same time takes place. So there is a
sympathetic interchange takes place with the pain and pleasure from that point of view. Do you
understand?
Q: Well the problem once the chaos begins, the possibility of stepping back from it is so
difficult. In other words, you’re saying, “experience the pain…”
CTR: Well, you don’t have to step back, particularly, just trying to look at the situation that you
feel pain. When you feel pain, that pain doesn’t kill you on the spot. You don’t find yourself
dropping dead on the spot. There’s something which trying to takes you over, take you over, and
trying to survive. That’s the life force. That you are not all that delicate. You are in fact
somewhat tough and you have a force of life. The obstacles provide force of death. And trying
to fight between the two constantly happening. So there is a lot of vigor takes place when you
feel slightly irritated and painful, like if your legs hurt when you sit and meditate, a lot of vigor
takes place, trying to compensate that pain with something beyond; trying to live at the same
time. So there’s a lot of struggle and sense of being interested, being living.
Q: Thanks.
QF4: When you use the word “livelihood”, in my reading in Buddhism before, I’ve come across
the term “right livelihood” as one of the principles of Buddha. And I had always interpreted that
to mean that you should be following a profession or a right line of work. But does that principle
also include within it the sense of life you’ve been describing tonight?
CTR: Well, we’re talking about livelihood in a different way. This is a practice of meditational
thing. And the eightfold path talks about right livelihood, which is about having the right kind of
occupation of life: not being aggressive and destructive to other sentient beings, and being kind
and so forth. But in this case, we are talking in terms that your livelihood is your practice. This is
a special kind of livelihood, a special kind of life, realization of life – that you could feel a sense
of vigor and energy that takes place in the process of the practice of meditation. You are actually,
in some sense, you could say quite safely, fighting death; fighting aggression.
QM5: Rinpoche, in my sitting practice, I attempt to have a certain sense of following my breath,
but I got the impression tonight from what you were saying that that didn’t really matter. That all
that was necessary was just to sit, just to be on the cushion, whether your thoughts were
anywhere else or with your breath, or with anything didn’t seem to matter.
27
CTR: I think we’re saying the same thing, actually. That it is necessary to relate with the breath
because that accentuates the whole thing of being on the meditation cushion, sitting at the same
time. Because breathing is also a symbol of being alive. Alive. If you stop your breathing, you
are dead. So there is a sense of experiencing life, which goes on, constantly takes place.
Q5: Because I feel sometimes when I’ve — maybe it comes not necessarily in a judgmental
sense like “this was a good sitting” or “this was a bad sitting,” but I feel like sometimes, I hear
the gong and then I hear the gong again, and like I didn’t sit. I was there, in that room, but I like
didn’t –
CTR: That’s the precisely the point where you do need the discipline of the breathing. Then you
begin to feel that you are actually breathing. And then you begin to feel you are begin to ache
your body; and you are actually alive and you are struggling; and you are being alive and
struggling; struggling; alive, [unclear, “against death”?].
QF6: I’m confused about what you were just saying: that whatever you are doing, wherever, if
you sit, there’s some connection. A force. Is that like, if you’re into sitting, then in a sense
you’re always in that same kind of sitting awareness, like you said, whether you’re eating with
your parents or this, that or the other thing. Is that it?
CTR: I think that’s the case, actually. If you sit, actually if you sit, that you are making yourself
connections with the world and yourself. And that also brings understanding to after-meditation,
after sitting, post-meditation experience as well. That you have the sense that you sat, that
mindfulness comes back to you that you sat, constantly.
QM7: You’ve used the term “sitting properly”, and I wondered what you would see as sitting
improperly.
CTR: Basically, simply, sitting improperly (gestures?) I think your guess is a good as mine,
actually, that we don’t have to define particularly logistic logical rules and regulations. That if
you’re not there, you’re not sitting. Sometimes you can sit properly even if you’re not there.
You still sit properly.
Good luck, sir.
QM8: Could you say something about the post-meditative experience after sitting a dathun?
Because it seems to be some sort of very disoriented depression of some sort — a very haunting
emptiness, which I find hard to deal with.
CTR: Well that’s the challenge, actually. The dathun situation had provided enormous security.
It has a program and meals have been served at a certain particular time, and you know more or
less basically exactly what’s going to happen. And there is regularity of all kinds of things took
place. But then that you broke your shell in your egg and suddenly a little chick comes out of
that, who’s been sitting for dathun and has to handle the rest of the world.
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I don’t think there’s any particular prescribed ex-dathun people to people to relate with reality.
But I think only thing that you can do is trying to experience the world. And dathun means onemonth long meditation, which you can reduce into a minute-long meditation, a fraction of a
second-long meditation, that could relate with the rest of the world. So that you have minidathuns taking place for the rest of your life – every second; every fraction of a second.
I think it’s a question of how brave you are. One has to be brave. That’s one of the problems that
we face: that once you are raised in a highly disciplined circle of organization, monastic
discipline – and when you step out of it, you feel that your skin is torn out. You don’t even have
skin let alone your clothes. And you feel completely threatened by the world. And that seems to
be one of the problems. But I think you can handle it, as much as you’ve be handling with your
own neurosis-journey dathun.
Good luck, sir.
Francis.
QM9: Rinpoche, I’m a novice at meditation and even Buddhism, and I’m going to have to go
back to my family soon, and they will ask me, “What did you learn in this seminar?” And I’d just
like you to say in a few words where, where should I begin an explanation of this experience
here.
CTR: Well I think we have to be quite clear at this point whether you’re going to – well, your
question is concerned with what you’re going to tell your family, or what you’re going to do
yourself. As far as what you’re going to do to yourself – [laughs] whatever –terms of this
practice, that you’re going to be present. That you are going to experience life as it is rather than
expectations with your past and desires with the future. But your going to relate with your life in
the fullest sense as it is.
And I think that one of the problems that exists with our society is there is so much speed. That
so much evaluation is taking place. So you can say that you have learned — if you talk with your
family — you can say that you have learned to be slower. Slow down your speed and appreciate
your family. Appreciate your wife’s cooking, food, appreciate your kids if you have kids. And
appreciate your job. And that is seems to be the point, that I hope you live up to it, actually, that
what you say to them is not the point.
That usually what happens is that we have so many things to do in life, we jump back and forth.
We don’t experience anything at all except our computer machine, our typewriter. That has been
the problem, constantly. So the question here is to experience everything in it’s own accord.
When you drink hot tea it burns your lips, your tongue. That’s reality. That’s a lesson in how to
drink tea. Everything is very literal and direct and very personal, extremely personal and direct
and very simple and, in fact, somewhat demanding. But I think that’s necessary.
Gentleman at the wall.
29
QM9: What impressed me so much about your talk about your scene on the porch was the power
of earth. And the way I see it now, in light of what you said tonight, is that even the Buddha and
certainly the bodhisattvas, and probably all the mahasiddhas are second in power to the power of
earth. So the powers they have, and I for the longest time, thought that that the Buddha could
stop the world, or the bodhisattva could be impervious to the rules of earth. And now I seem to
believe, from what you said, that their powers relate only to relating to the challenges earth
throws at them. They are second to earth.
CTR: Something like that.
Q:That’s a great load off my mind.
CTR: Good luck, sir.
QF10: When you talked about checking back while you’re sitting, I assume you mean checking
back experiences, things that you’ve gone through or things that have happened to you in your
daily life. No?
CTR: No, checking in the sense of just checking, without any purpose. Just check — don’t cut
out the rest of it. It’s a kind of jerk, a constant jerk. That’s it.
Once you start to check back and evaluated the whole thing, then the whole thing becomes
extremely messy. The whole thing, checking back, is a sort of leak in your pipe. So checking in
this case is just look, look, look. That’s it.
Q: Thanks.
CTR: Maybe we have to close at this point, I’m sorry to say. Tomorrow as I understand it
correctly, if that’s the case, of we’re having a nyinthun tomorrow. Right? I would like to request
everybody to take part in this, because this nyinthun is the highlight of our seminar, actually, in
which that you can experience we be talking about, what we’ve been talking about. And
hopefully, the nyinthun is placed in the middle of the seminar that you’re attending so that
further questions might arise from it, further and discussions might arise from it and can be
worked on, can be related with. So, this is very important.
And also we would like to, for the sake of American karma is concerned, that we don’t want to
put too much unnecessary speed and energy without slowing down halfway through. And
nyinthun seemed to be the best way to slow down and provide you with a whole day just purely
to yourselves, completely to yourselves. This land is yours, you can sit here and you can expand
yourself. The 375 acres of land that we have is yours. And in fact you can expand: this continent
is yours.
And it is necessary discipline, actually, very important. A lot of things that we discuss are not
covered by descriptions or talks, but can only be covered by experience. So that seems to be a
very important point, for you to realize that. And I personally feel guilty or bad that somebody
came up to the seminar and heard lots of talks and attended a lot of discussions and asked a lot of
30
questions, without attending nyinthun, they’ve gone back home. And they collected maybe a lot
of gems, but gems wrapped up in garbage. And there’s no purification that took place. So that’s
where we stand at this point. So would highly encourage, and I’d like to push you at this point. If
you could take part in what we’ll be doing tomorrow it will be extremely beneficial, endlessly
beneficial, without benefit. Thank you.
31
Talk #4 checked
August 22, 1974
Some questions about effort. Generally, the question is [pause] there is emphasis on spontaneity,
and also emphasis on discipline at the same time. And often, seemingly, there is a contradiction
between the two. The notion of spontaneity is, in this case, is a question of directness and a
question of fearlessness that – the idea of being with the first thought is seem to be the main
point. That spontaneity is not particularly regarded as being an abrupt thing, and sudden thing,
particularly, but spontaneity is a continual situation, that there is freshness takes place in every
moment of one’s life experience or sitting practice of meditation, whatever. Some sense of
delight in the situation. Some sense of less concern with accuracy and being precise, but sense of
clear-seeing.
The notion of spontaneity is also connected with that which doesn’t bring tenseness, tension in
one’s system, physically, psychologically. That actual tension, irritation, is based on a sense of
unable to being spontaneous, that there is two conflicting energies fighting with each other — that
energy of wanting to let go, and energy of wanting to hold still. So, spontaneity, in this point,
could be said is essence of humor, sense of humor, essence of joy, delightful. And almost this
one, this has element of naïveté in some sense.
Spontaneity could be said is the opener of the doors to freedom, but at the same time, true
spontaneous approach can’t take place unless there is, at the same time, a sense of discipline. So
they go together, constantly. Whenever there is a sense of joy, sense of humor, that joy comes
from being there, properly, fully, and humor comes from being there, fully, and even spontaneity
itself is possible because you are there to experience the experience of spontaneity, and being
there is also discipline at the same time. And what we’re discussing, at this point, is actually not
so much the practice of sitting meditation alone, but we are talking in terms of general life
situation that experienced throughout the day, throughout your life.
Discipline is different from effort, but, at the same time, discipline means exertion. The notion of
effort is like dealing with the bureaucracy, that one has to go through all kinds of channels, the
application forms, and all kinds of things, until you get what you want, and effort is that you
have to crank up your body, crank up your mind, and finally you try to aim at your particular
goal. It’s very loose, and at the same time it is very clumsy. But there is possibilities of having,
developing exertion, which is much more direct, that when you feel unresourceful, depressed, or
you feel that as if you are on top of the world, that there is sense of indulgency takes place. And
out of sense of indulgency you can’t go on because you are still being detained at either
pleasurable or painful situation may be. So the question is very direct exertion is kind of bringing
yourself back to square one, to the first thought level. Sense of solidness begin to take place, in
the positive sense.
But you might say, “This is very well, but how do we begin?” And there is a different
perspective in how we begin in the whole thing, is, right at the beginning, that we don’t begin
properly. We begin as what we are, which is to say, that maybe a distorted way, confused way,
that you have no idea how to actually begin properly, but you begin somehow or other, one just
does it. And people also bothered by this haphazard way of beginning and look for perfection of
32
some kind, but somehow, if you look for perfection, there is no such thing at the time, on the
spot. One has to start with the confusion and imperfection, which is absolutely necessary,
definitely necessary. And again, there is a sense of spontaneity starting with the clumsiness, as if
one is playing games with oneself, making fool of oneself, at the beginning. And let us be fool;
let us do it. And that is also spontaneity, in fact. [Laughs; much laughter. Something must have
happened, nonverbal.]
The sense of primitive way of beginning, sitting practice or awareness practice in everyday life
situation, is the first glimpse of spontaneity, which comes with the sense of exertion, at the same
time, that one has to continue, one has to commit oneself into what we are doing. The question of
discipline always comes along with having begun something. One has begun already and then let
us keep walking. The idea of egolessness, and the idea of spiritual attainment, and all those
questions are, in fact, nuisance at the beginning. And more one has higher goals, metaphysical
ideas, that much self-conscious that we become, and we can’t even be a fool, which is absolutely
disastrous. So we are stuck in the halfway through, and not being wise person and not being fool,
and constantly constipated. [Slight laughter.]
The question of exertion is interesting point again. In Sanskrit word it is virya, which literally
means “hard working,” or, in other word, becoming acquaintance with working hard, becoming
accustomed to working hard. So there’s a suggestion of some kind of routine takes place all the
time, whenever there is the very high, thick doorstep in front of you, should you climb over it or
should you try to avoid it? So there is always that thing to climb over; there’s all kinds of
possibilities of trying to avoid; and maybe sometimes we’d rather pay(?) a hole through the wall
rather than cross the doorway. But it is necessary to step over the doorstep and conduct oneself
properly, so to speak.
So, in the life situation, often things are not particularly consciously involved with the spiritual
questions, but questions of life: communication, sense of honesty, and sense of skillfulness,
sense of demand of all kinds takes place in one’s life. And there is successive seemingly dead
end. The thick wall is beginning to approach us; you can’t go any longer beyond that, and there
is a constant challenges takes place. And at some point that we become so accustomed to such
challenges constantly happening – there is all kinds of irritations takes place every minute of our
life — sometimes even pleasurable situations becomes irritable.
So there is constant reminders of that blockage takes place all the time. And person is willing to
make acquaintance with that blockage. That is exertion. Not so much to the fact that you should
try to make things smooth and there is trying to create, try to create less blockage, or trying to
create better situation or any of those, but simply just becoming acquainted with those blockages
— problems after problem that comes up. And that is what’s called the path, in fact. Trodding on
the path is taking a trip round obstacles after obstacles. The path is made out of obstacles,
otherwise there is no path. It becomes a free ride.
So, it is important to think in terms of the exertion question is very important at this point, which
is related with the third foundation of mindfulness, which is effort. In fact the, one doesn’t put
that much effort, but one just be open, and the reference point comes to you. So, in other words,
effort comes to you; you acknowledge the effort and goes with it, rather than that we are trying
33
to work up, crank up our gearshift, whatever. The question of exertion is extremely important
connected with the mindfulness of effort – that there is primitive question of overcoming
obstacles, and there is also sophisticated question of regarding obstacles as path at same time.
Those both polarities takes place at the same time; constantly works together. The question of
nourishment, feedbags, seem to be meaningless, because there is constant feedbags, of nature of
struggle, rather than that you be fed by healthy good food, particularly.
So the question of right effort brings the definite notion of that there is path, and one doesn’t
have to check with one’s guru or whatever every ten seconds. But there is actually some
experience taking place on your path, that there is pattern, there is texture of your path. There is
the style of energies begin to flow by itself, so there is constant, so to speak, feedbags, taking
place, and unless one want to be nursed by some parental figure very badly, that everything is
very obvious.
So from that point of view, this four foundations of mindfulness practice is designed to people
who practice meditation in remote areas, in fact, where there is the least contact with the teacher,
and maybe least contact with fellow sangha, members of sangha. And it is somewhat aimed to
those people who are involved with maybe domestic life, economic pressure. So it is applicable,
because there is constant things happening. And working in the factory, putting together nuts and
bolts, or being college professor – that all the realm of occupations that might exist in the world
are always applicable, because such teaching of meditation, at this point, is geared for lonely
people.
Which doesn’t mean to say some are not lonely but everybody’s lonely people. As soon as that
you have cut your umbilical cord that you are lonely, that you dissociate yourself with your
mother and father, you are begin to grow up into lonely person. The more poetic way of saying
that is “aloneness”, I suppose, but actually saying the same thing. That there is – interestingly
somebody thought — somebody was kind to such lonely people, and they decide to work on that
particular project and come up with such idea as like practice of meditation, is very kind, and
remarkable, and that’s maybe what’s called “compassion.” [Laughs.]
And it is necessary to realize those areas of exertion, areas of loneliness, areas of discipline,
which brings the question of mindfulness of effort, and the sense of aloneness, loneliness, and
sense of need for exertion, which is very — could be source of enormous romantic trip, yearning
towards some kind of monasticism, but at the same kind it could be a very real one because it is
connected with our everyday life situation at the same time.
Well, we could have a discussion.
Q1M: What you just said about – the last 2 things you just said about this discipline not relying
on being able to check back with the guru every ten seconds or minutes or whatever it was and
also, and also the possibility of going two different ways, what you just said, getting into a sort
of – well I’m not sure that I remember what you just said, maybe it’s my own interpretation – but
when you were talking about not checking back with the guru every ten seconds, is that to say
that [pauses. Laughter] When you [laughter] ask a question and there is a, and you’re somewhat
34
aware of there being an answer also there that you should, rather than check back with the guru
you should be willing to stick your neck way out? Ah, somewhat on your own impetus?
A1: Well, you see, one does that anyway, all the time. That, one does stick one’s neck out in any
case, and one is pretend to be not doing it when you found such safe reliable security such as
guru or solid parents, that you can communicate with them, and you put your neck down and
pretend to be very helpless and wretched, but as soon as you are out of their sight you usually
stick your neck out again anyway. [Laughter. Laughs.] So the question is, at this point, that this
is known to everybody at this point, including your guru, that you are working on yourself in any
case, and so to speak, make it legal.
Q1M: which is checking back with him? Is that situation —
A1: no, I think there is a situation there already. That answers that might come to you from your
guru might be exactly the same as what you experienced. I mean, there is fluctuations of life
situation is always there, experience is always there, and one begin to find that there is some
pattern, and instead of your mind is preoccupied with asking somebody else how this is all about,
you might just stick with that and just work with it. And the only purpose seem to be of teacher
is that who will push you back to square one. [pause] Good luck sir.
Q2F: I feel somewhat confused about being spontaneous and feeling somewhat impulsive and
indulgent. Could you talk a little bit about that?
A2: [Laughs; she laughs] You could play back our tape. [she giggles] I think the question is very
simple, actually, not all that complicated. That impulse and frivolity is based on hard working,
some kind of gimmick trying to shield off the sore points, and spontaneity, real spontaneity, is
based on everything’s out in the open, there is nothing to play games with anything but you just
work with what is there very simply and directly. And what was the other one?
Q2: That was it
A2: That’s it, yeah. [She laughs.]
Gentleman in the green?
Q3M: You talked this evening about exertion, the need for exertion, and I thought you were gone
32:49 but in other places you’ve talked about letting go and letting be, and at this point in both in
meditation practice and other areas of our discipline, I still sense somewhat of a – that those are
different, that there’s some kind of difference between exertion and letting be, or letting go.
Could you speak something about that?
A3: Well, strangely enough, in this case, exertion is letting go, letting be, at the same time. And
there is a very strange twist in the logic. I don’t know how many lawyers would buy this [laughs.
Laughter.], but the truth of the matter is, however [laughter; laughs], that the notion of exertion is
outcome of leap. And openness and let be — you can’t be, you can’t be be, unless you let go, and
you can’t let go unless you push yourself, which is exertion, so it’s saying the same thing.
35
That when you actually be spontaneously there, open, let go, and free, and that freedom is not so
much of just abandoning the hustle and bustle problems alone. That could be boredom, if you
just abandon everything you have — the complications of life — and thinking that is salvation.
That is kind of blank, flat. Whereas the actual notion of freedom here is to step into freedom,
which is a push. One has to push oneself. Whenever there is doubt or question of blockage,
which I discussed earlier on, then one has to push oneself, which is exertion, which is also letting
go at the same time.
Q3: Somehow in there, I guess my experience of exertion relates somehow to aggression, and
that seems to present a problem.
A3: Well we have a problem with the language, actually, in this case. We have to think entirely
different ways, that it’s a Buddhist way of using word “exertion,” which is a translation of virya,
which doesn’t mean aggression, which means working hard, which doesn’t mean
competitiveness or goal oriented [to] a particular thing. So, I think that’s one of the problems that
we might face, is that usage of word. Since the words are pure at the beginning, they make their
sense right at the beginning, but then they are abused, so much, and finally we don’t have any
resources, like Transcendental Meditation is called by just purely “T.M.”, by its initial, and it
doesn’t mean particularly very much to people. And situation like that developed. But there is no
aggression as far as exertion of virya is concerned.
You see, aggression obviously means to fight against something and to get what you want
without paying a cost. In this case of push is that you’re not getting anything out of it except you
find yourself leapt and floating and being freed, but you can’t even hold onto that. You can’t
freeze yourself in midair. Try it. [Laughter.]
Q3: Thank you.
[continued at this point on side 2]
Q4M: On the idea of exertion as you’ve just been talking about in terms of practice, would that
imply more of exertion in terms of discipline in setting up an attitude towards our practice and a
ground, a basis for our practice rather than while we’re sitting to sort of to squeeze and push hard
rather than just being there when we’re thinking?
A4: Well, I think everything we talk about in terms of meditation practice is level of attitude;
naturally, that’s the basic assumption. And moreover, in this case, it’s not so much of
deliberately push oneself in the same level as that, if you be rolfed [laughter; laughs]. But it’s
attitude, that there is leap is available, and there is potentialities of that, not only that but it
actually comes close to you, that you can let go with a certain amount of exertion.
Q4: Can I ask one other thing? When you were talking last time about the token of physical
sitting, it reminded me of the story you told about monkey who imitated an enlightened man, a
yogi, who was sitting, and the monkey would sit like he did. So when years and years – and the
36
day the yogi got enlightened the monkey got enlightened. [Laughter.] I was wondering if you
could explain a little better about how our imitation meditation works.
A4: I think you said it. [Laughter.]
Q4: I didn’t say anything.
jA4 If you insist.
Q4: You’re welcome.
Q5F: Um, in one of the seminary tapes you used the word leap and you used it again tonight, and
I don’t understand —
A5: I beg your pardon.
Q5: You used the word leap.
A5: Leap?
Q5: Yeah. I don’t understand what you mean by that.
A5: Well, that’s leap [laughter.] Let go. And you find yourself walking, and then you find
yourself there’s no ground to walk; you find yourself enormous cliff, that you lost your ground,
and the only way to do is just to go along with it. And that happens in life. I wouldn’t suggest to
do it literally. [laughter.] Metaphorically or psychologically speaking. [Laughs.]
Q6M: Rinpoche, in regard to meditation practice, is the loneliness that you speak of an attitude
that we cultivate or a given fact of the situation
A6: Both, it’s both. Actually, much more onto the given situation. Sometimes if you take that
attitude it could be a source of security, which then you find you can keep company with your
loneliness.
Q6: Thanks.
A7: Gentleman in the glasses?
Q7M: Would you say more about the element of naïveté involved in spontaneity?
A7: Well, I think that’s purely a question of, some strange reason, a mixture of naïveté and pride,
and you be successful in conning yourself constantly, and actually you been able to achieve the
achievement of the whole thing, and you develop your own version of a kind of special trade,
successful business, in which that you could be snobbish, and you could be resourceful, oneupmanship, and at the same time you can let go. And those are the kinds of situations that
happens with the naïveté.
37
Is usually, basically speaking, except underdeveloped child, most of people – adult level, anyway
– they are not really naïve. Nobody is actually naïve at all. But they play the game of being
naïve, because they know that they are getting out of it. They could get into it very easily. There
is – even if they made mistake, they could be pardoned, dishonorable discharge, honorable
discharge, whatever it’s [called].
Q7: It’s like playing like you’re ignorant, then?
A7: Well, with a certain sense of intelligence, obviously.
Q7: Thank you.
Q8F: Could you say the idea about the idea of spontaneity in relationship to the creative process.
21:08
A8: Well, I think if you list them down, if you named one after another, the possibilities of it,
then it cease to become creative. So, in order to be creative and spontaneous, is we have to
experience it; we have to do it. Otherwise we kill the whole thing. It’s up to you.
Q8: I’m thinking about the statement you made about dharma art, the idea of nonaggression, and
that relationship to spontaneity.
A8: Yeah, well it’s nonaggresion. Simply, what you’re experiencing there is not connected with
the pull and push area, give and take, but it is an expression of what you are, what you have. And
consequently, by strange coincidence, that your product of your work is become masterpiece.
Q8: How does that relate to, in terms of art, the idea of doing something for making a statement
about something? Is there spontaneity involved in that process?
A8: Making a statement about something?
Q8: To create a piece of artwork, for instance, to make a statement about something.
A8: Such as…
Q8: A preconceived notion of wanting to make a statement about something rather than having it
be a spontaneous kind meditative kind of experience
A8: Well I mean, all the work of art, that so far we know, is inherited from generations and
generations in the past, and we can’t produce fresh art no longer. That most of the work of art is
a product of some tradition or culture of something-or-other already, so we can’t create fresh
thing. But it’s not so much of that, in terms of product, but it’s the attitude at the time.
I mean, like the brush strokes of Zen school of art is already established tradition, and thangka
paintings are already established tradition already. And even, from that point of view, that even
abstract art of the modern school also has it’s own concepts already established. So if you begin
38
to fight back, and try yourself to yourself emerge from those established situations, and make
yourself unique; it is not possible at all. You have nothing left.
And people tried all kinds of ways, and all kinds of strange art objects being presented. But still
it remains in the realm of same kind of expressive art that is connected with tradition of some
kind. So, I think, if we’re trying to escape from the means, or the mediums that are presented,
that there is no way out. We are stuck with it in any case. But it’s the attitude that behind the
whole thing, which could be spontaneous and direct.
And mainly, a person should be trained right at the beginning as artist in a very orthodox, almost
orthodox, and enlightened teacher. That person should be trained in a very conservative way, that
goes with meditation, and art, music, anything, should be trained in a very strict discipline at the
beginning. And then when you begin to feel you can afford to open yourself, and you can
express yourself. And I think that spontaneity exists in that particular context. Because the basic
point of spontaneity is possible is because exertion is possible, and discipline is possible,
therefore spontaneity is also possible at the same time. That’s the basic point.
16:09
Q8: thank you
Q9M: Rinpoche, when you were talking about the blockages that you experience during
meditation, during the dathun I had the experience of physical blockages in my body, I feel like
sort of a clogged up feeling in certain parts of my body, and I wondering whether [laughter,
unknown reason] if this was a manifestation of something you were talking about, and whether
you can do something physically. I especially got it in the chest area. Whether there is a physical
thing you can do as well as just sitting there and meditating
A9: Do what?
Q9: I don’t know.
A9: What are you trying to find out?
Q9: Well, instead of just sitting there following the breath, would there be anything else one
would do to deal with the physical blockage
A9: The idea of physical blockage is also, as we mentioned before, I talked before, it is part of
the textures of the path. That’s it; that is your path. And you try to follow the path rather than
destroy the path. If you want to have path to follow, you’ve got to have those. But those are not
particularly regarded as bad or good, anything particularly, and this is not particularly regarded
as masochistic, particularly, at all, that those things are necessary. Those particular blockages
and problems brings you down to earth level, that you actually feel that you are actually there,
rather than drifting amongst cloud.
Q9: Thank you
A9: Welcome.
39
Q10M: Two questions. The spontaneity seems very seductive sometimes. For instance,
experiencing sense of spontaneity, joy, and delight, somehow it seems to lead into the, kind of
frivolous energy, and then all of a sudden and you realize that the spontaneity is gone. How does
the discipline work? Is it just a matter of seeing that happen?
A10: Well, discipline works right at the beginning, rather than discipline is trying to capture
spontaneity afterwards. So spontaneity is discipline already, at the beginning. Spontaneity as a
sharp eye plays in, is discipline already. That seems to be the basic point, that when you feel
there is a delight, delightfulness, that there is a sense of resourcefulness, sense of openness
involved, those things can occur because that you’re being disciplined.
Otherwise you couldn’t actually relate with them, this is just like something gliding off your
hand, that you can’t actually catch them. So in order to feel true appreciation of the spontaneity,
that one has to discipline at the same time. Discipline, in this sense, is not necessarily holding
down or slowing down, in any case, but actually making the connections with what’s going on
there. So it is a question of connection, at this point.
Q10: But when it starts to feel like that frivolous energy is happening, the spontaneity is lost
A10: No, not quite. When you begin to feel that the frivolous energy begin to take place, you
have both the possibilities of tuning into discipline as well spontaneity even then. So there is lots
of room for it.
Q10: Second question is something that came up during discussion group today, for me at least.
It was – it seems that the whole path is permeated by a sense of ignorance, that the only reason
we’re practicing is because we feel ignorant. And — That isn’t really the case, is it? [laughter] I
mean, I’ve heard you talk about the only thing we need to realize is that there’s nothing to
realize, or that there’s no ignorance, and therefore no enlightenment, etcetera. My question is:
how does that relate to effort and energy. It seems to be very binding. It seems that it would be
painful for myself and a lot of — I feel it around me, so irritating. Um, never mind [Laughter.].
A10: Well I think actually what you said is well said. The question of ignorance being path, or
path exists because of ignorant, is precisely the case. That you don’t make journey – if you want
to get from here to Boulder – we take the journey to Boulder because we are not in Boulder.
Otherwise, we don’t make journey; it’s redundant. So, because you are not there, therefore you
are doing it, because you have no idea what happens once you get there and, obviously, that’s the
pattern, that’s the obstacles and blockages that we’ve been talking about.
But I don’t think there’s any problems with that. One has to relate with that as also being, you
begin to see the certain aspect of the dharma, that is, you may be seeing vaguely, you may be
seeing slowly clearly, may be seeing more clearly, may be seeing further clearly – but still, you
are seeing it. So you can look both ways: that you are be ignorant, at the same time, you be
intelligent because you be ignorant. 9:07
40
Q11F: Can you say something about dealing with areas of personal weakness. If you perceive in
yourself a weakness or a way you have of relating to energy, something, how do you relate to
that?
A11: Well that’s also a blockage; that you feel that the weakness seem to be a very polite way of
putting, “lost of resourcefulness” that “not having enough energy”. You have no resources any
more. And I think that’s also the structure of the path, that there is a sense of that you’ve run out
of your gasoline; you can’t drive anymore. And there is a sense of being [child calls “mommy,
mommy”; laughter] there is a sense of being confused.
But I think you don’t actually deal with being weak, but at the same time you’re being weak.
You just do it, you just be with it, you just be weak. And then once you begin to be weak, and
then you begin to regenerate energy, because you be weak. In order to be weak you also need
energy to be weak. Otherwise you can’t exist, and you begin to appreciate that something is
happening, which is a reminder. And, actually, that is takes place. Take place is, you know, a
room or place, whatever you’d like to call it, is begin to happen. There is a situation to be; to
exist. Because you are weak. Which is very energetic.
Q11: If you see your weakness, and you go in and you decide — you don’t decide, there’s no
space to decide, you just go into it. How do you know if you’re just being foolish and if you’re
actually doing something.
A11: One doesn’t, but one has to do it, because you are up with your own resources in any case.
Q11: So you’re advocating going in to it, rather than–
A11: Yeah
Q11: okay
A11. Good luck.
Q12M: Does what you said about leaping – does that have anything to do with the qualities of
dakinis, or that energy?
A12: Well, not particularly. I think you want to be talking about, is a kind of, in the beginner’s
level, and has nothing to do with the dakinis or a parachute, particularly.
Q12: It seems that taking a leap, or leaping, has something to do with recognition of space or
openness
A12: Yeah, sure, obviously, but we don’t have to give it a name, particularly; we just do it.
Well, maybe we should close ourselves [laughter] at this point. The further reference point to the
fundraising pitch that’s been done, and I would like to say something about it. And, that what
happened so far with our development and our community, our scene –so to speak “scene” —
41
generally is concerned, there is a lot of energy, and people being able to practice more and work
together. And the growth of community has been enormously energetic, practical, and, at the
same time, honest, and non-spiritual-materialistic, and such achievement have come to a
situation.
But in order to continue to proceed beyond this level, is that not so much that particularly
tomorrow morning you come up with a fat check as such, but I think the question of that we are
in involved, that if anyone taking part here would care to take the attitude of there is need for
help of some kind, and that’s the same kind of question that we plant in your subconscious mind,
that you be haunted, and some kind of attitude is that taking it personally, rather than thinking in
terms of the administrators might maybe goof, and therefore there is not money, and they
mismanaged and therefore there is a problem. Or, maybe they can go by; they have done good
work already, they’ve survived already, why can’t they survive in the future? And, which is kind
of impersonal attitude, and at the same time taking advantages of facilities with that kind of
attitude is not very fair, and doesn’t seem to be particularly kind attitude.
So, the question is sort of taking very personally, that you are here, I am here, we are here. So we
are sharing this earth, and particularly, this particular patch on the earth, that we’re sharing
together, specifically, which is much more so than the usual sharing the earth. That you could
come back, you could work with us, you could be here. And I could be here; this is a possibility
of trying to recreate the sort of solid situation that we could particularly work in the area of
practice of meditation. This land is provided for that, so it’s a question of taking some kind of
attitude of personal interest, which we need very much, rather than just purely, as was
mentioned, coming up with the money necessarily on the spot.
But we can’t relax too much, and we – in a questionable situation at this point, and we do need
urgent help. But even then, let us not make that as purely urgent situation alone, but as land
payments grows larger and larger every year, and you have the knowledge already this year, so if
you could help us in the future reference of next year or the year after, whatever. And just keep
that in mind, that it is a very personal thing rather than purely organizational bureaucracy, at the
[very tip?] level. So, keep that in mind, and think about it, and maybe dream about it. [Laughter.]
Thank you.
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Talk 5
August 23, 1974
CTR: Mindfulness of mind is the fourth category of the four foundations of mindfulness. The
question of mind is, in this case, both experiential as well as intuitive; experiential in the sense
that it has the qualities of reflecting all kinds of emotions; intuitive because there is also
possibilities of experiencing a glimpse of clarity at the same time. Such glimpse of clarity can’t
be regarded as particularly insightful – but it is just basic makeup, that that seems to be generally
how we operate ourselves in our life situations.
The awareness practice which connected with this particular mind is confusing in some sense.
Whether you relate with the emotional aspect or intuitive aspect, the aspect of emotional
upsurge, or the aspect of momentary clarity – and that seems to be one of the sources of
restlessness that occurred in the practice of meditation, basically, that we are unable to decide,
unable to rest or live with which one to be with. The emotional aspect is quite provocative and
often entertaining, securing. And the clarity aspect is often refreshing, and a sense of relieve
occurred at the same time. So there is conflict between those two, which is actually the basis of
the restlessness that occurred in the sitting practice of meditation.
That in order to apply the fourth foundations of mindfulness, it does seem to be necessary for us
to be clear. So the student doesn’t particularly decide on either of those two situations, and try to
decide on either of those just purely random, or maybe logical conclusions. But at the same time,
a student should be able to relate with both of those situations. The sense of relieve and the
changing of the reference point takes place, and changing of gear shift, so to speak, takes place
from one mood to another mood. And there is occasional clarity takes place between one mood
to another mood.
But at the same time, there is also enormous demand in terms of emotions. Particularly in sitting
practice, it comes in the form of memories, habitual thought patterns, fantasies, expectations of
future. And the question is generally asked that whether we should try to pull back on those
preoccupations and try to be a good boy – clean and pure. Or else, sometimes boredom demands
that one might as well get into these little entertainments, and there is a short relieve of tension,
and one can get into fantasies of this and that, memories of this and that, and feels hypnotized, so
therefore you could kill time. And maybe ten minutes gone, five minutes gone, three minutes
gone, and a sense of relief and a sense of guilt takes place at the same time.
The mindfulness of mind, in this case, is largely on focusing on those two types of situations: the
clarity and emotional cloudiness. So a person could start on the — take example — on the
confusion and emotional cloudiness. And that is — often hesitating — that there is uncertainty
whether the student should come back to the breathing awareness practice or whether the student
should remain exploring or finding out the emotional cloudiness. So the mindfulness of mind
technique offers this particular approach, which is being with whatever happens, that the
movement of breath and pulsation of body and fickleness of thoughts are takes place at the same
time, simultaneously. Obviously, you don’t stop breathing when you think. And one goes on
constantly, and there is a larger notion of covering both areas – that of the breath and that of the
thought patterns, usually very demanding ones, maybe.
43
The question of concentration usually means that we can’t split our awareness, focus, focal point,
to more than one object. And whenever we talk about ordinary terms of concentration, we’re
talking in terms of paying attention to one thing at a time. But in this case of mindfulness of
mind level, that the awareness or concentration could develop panoramically. It’s like shining a
beam which becomes expanded as it is reflected on an object — that there is the touch of the
highlights of the emotions, touch of the highlights of the breath, both being seen simultaneously.
And it becomes very much of mind activity at that point — that it is why it is called the
foundation of mind of the mind, mindfulness of mind. The cognitive mind is actually functioning
in its utter precision. You may hear sounds, you might see vision, sight of all kinds, and you
might have thought patterns of all kinds, but all of those are somewhat related. Therefore, there
is a binding factor, which is the mind, and therefore whenever there is mind, there is the
possibilities of being aware of that happening, rather than reducing your focus of concentration
to one particular level alone.
With regard to the other subject of the gaps that happens or the sense of clarity is concerned,
that’s also very simple. That when the focus of mind begin to change to a different themes,
which involves personally you (which literally means emotion here — if something involves you
personally, therefore you make a big deal out of those), that there’s a gap that doesn’t involve a
big deal about you but just a change of shift, like taking rest between the right and left legs,
putting weight on each other; transferring weight on each other. When the shift takes place, there
is also a kind of gap which is not particularly mystical or anything special, but just there is a
change of shift, a change of emphasis takes place. And that gap is also could be covered by the
sense of presence of awareness. It’s like sunlight reflecting on both the precipice of mountains as
well as in the valleys simultaneously.
So, such awareness probably can’t be actually experienced as such and referred back to oneself
by saying, “I’m being aware. I’m now being fully mindful.” But there is a sense of being there
takes place; a sense of being takes place, a sense of touching takes place. That one is
experiencing a sense of touch at the level of emotions; one is experiencing a sense of touch on
the level of gap; one is experiencing a sense of touch on the other side of the shore, the other
shore, as well. So there is even distribution of mindfulness takes place.
So this brings another question — “What do we mean by mindful?” — if you’re not particularly
talking in terms of fully committed yourself into that very moment. Well, mindful at this point is
that you are experiencing a sense of gentle touch all over the place, all your state of mind. It’s
like stroking a kitty-cat. You feel the each hair as your finger moves down, but there is some
continuity as well as there is some individuality at the same time. It’s, the question is — the
object, so to speak, here, is to be total, rather than to be selective.
And of course, if you are trying to be selective, and trying to find the famous mindfulness
experience [laughter], and if you look harder, you begin to lose it – there’s no such thing as
really mindfulness at all, and the whole thing becomes illusion, and you find yourself in an
onionskin peeling off, that you think that you are being mindful, but you are watching yourself
being mindful, and then you’re watching yourself doing that, and then you’re watching yourself
44
doing that. And so there’s a constant, constant, constant reflection back and forth, and finally one
gets completely bewildered. So from that point of view that one has to give up the idea of
developing or cultivating true mindfulness as such, but just to accept what’s goes on, and just
make the best of it, so to speak. And leave the world undisturbed, rather than trying to
disentangle too efficiently.
The question of mindfulness is, from that point of view, not at all demanding. It’s not
particularly hard working, hard work, but at the same time, it is extremely demanding. Because if
you have something to put your effort and energy into to deal with the demand, you have
occupation; you feel better. But once you are suspended in the middle of nowhere, touching and
experiencing, but not being there at the same time either, so that’s very dubious. The best
experience that a person who takes the practice of mindfulness would feel is that, that feels still
there’s more to go; more to develop, that you have done something completely half-hearted level
rather than fully, but you are there constantly at the same time.
So that seems to be the basic point. And that is connected with the notion of definition of
dharma, which is “aggressionless.” “Aggressionlessness” is the definition of dharma, “without
aggression.” So meditation practice is being – particularly at the first level – is the true
introduction to the dharma, to actually experiencing dharma, living dharma. And therefore it is
be regarded at non-aggression action. Whereas there is, could be a strong possibility that if we
push ourselves to an enormous concentration level, and trying to push ourselves and painfully
exert ourselves more than necessary, then it becomes aggression at the same time.
And the reason why this gliding through the different landscapes of mind landscape is possible,
and at the same time that person doesn’t become wooly-minded, is because that there is a sense
of actual experience takes place each moment. In order to be dreamy, vague, that one has to pay
less attention to what’s happening. So in this case, because there is actual contact, actual touch,
touching the surface of the mind actually takes place very gently, so therefore it is not
particularly heavy dosage at the beginning but in the long run, as we go on, as we continue our
practice, it becomes impressionable to our mind.
I suppose if you talk too much of it, we would get more clouded. We could have a discussion.
Q1M: I get confused by sitting meditation and, say, doing some kind of activity. And I wonder
what the difference is between sitting and being aware of your breathing, and what goes on in the
situation in a meditation hall, and working a job or doing some other work. In other words,
what’s the difference between sitting and being aware of your work?
CTR: Well, the question seems to be is that, in sitting practice, that there is continual awareness
or continual mindfulness being developed throughout the whole thing. In the case of awareness
that develops during post-meditation experiences, like work situations, such like, there is a sense
of checking rather than trying to cover the whole area. That seem to be the suggestion of
mindfulness in everyday life situations is, is not so much that you should try to watch yourself
constantly, in which you tend to become schizophreniac level, that you try to be aware and try to
accomplish the job at the same time. So the idea there is that sense of a — short spell of taking a
look at yourself, which then brings the notion of spontaneity in your daily activities, and
45
becomes accurate at the same time, whatever you are doing. So that seems to be the differences.
It’s a question of flashing your awareness while you are doing your job. And sitting practice is
concentrated notion of that, which you don’t even flash, but you try to carry out through it all the
time.
Q2F: Rinpoche, I wanted to know if, as one practices longer, the quality of the mind changes, if
as one’s neurosis lessens how the quality of the mind actually begins to differ. To me it would
seem that there might be more gaps and perhaps less holding on to emotional kinds of thought
patterns. And I wondered if the nature of the thought pattern changed.
CTR: Well, it seems that what actually happens is that when there is more gaps, there is, in the
midst of the gap, there is more thought comes. And then in the midst of that thought, there are
gaps, but that thought produces that gap produces more thoughts. So I think it’s a question of
constantly rediscovering oneself, that you can’t really — you have to stop sorting yourself out.
And until one has come to the conclusion, or give up hope, from that point of view, that there is
no such thing as “once when you become good at it, then things will be okay.” There is no such
thing at all. There is overlapping rediscovery of oneself, constantly rediscovering. There is so
much things to know about oneself which one hasn’t actually related with oneself in any way.
So, finally these energy of thought becomes harmless, not irritable to oneself. Until that level,
there is no situation that one can take rest, particularly.
Q2F: Thank you. There was one other question. When you talked about, “If we push ourselves
we become aggressive,” I sense that it’s very difficult for me to know when I’m pushing myself
that far. Are there any signposts to know that?
CTR: Well, I think that’s a natural sort of organic thing. When you push yourself harder, you
find that you’ve been pushed back, that there is automatic rebounds and a reminder takes place.
Q2: Uh-huh. Okay. Thank you.
CTR: Over there.
Q3F: I get confused about the idea of half-heartedness and non-aggression. I get a feeling of like
almost a passivity or inactivity, and I’m wondering would it be non-aggressive if you were
passionate without grasping. Where is the room for being passionately such-and-such or
passionately this-or-that? [Laughs.]
CTR: What are you trying to find out?
Q3F: [Laughs; Laughter] I know! Well, you know, once you told me that the only thing that was
continuous was conflict, like that seemed to be an ongoing process. And I have thought about
that one conflict was the notion of teachings to understand and awareness to develop, and that
can be very passionate, like a real forcefulness to that, or a desire with that. And then there’s this
kind of feeling I can get into of “ehhh…”, you know? And those feel like passionate extremes
which are in conflict. So where’s nonaggression with all that stuff?
46
CTR: Well, the continuity of conflict in some sense contains non-aggression, because there is
possibilities of looking at it from a meditation point of view, from an awareness point of view.
That you might find that, a very rugged desert with the cactuses sticking up and thorns growing
and everything, and harsh rocks and landscape, but still, there is the possibilities of it all being
very still, if you look over it; if you glide over it. They’re seemingly threatening but at the same
time, they are very still; they are very earthy. So this is kind of difficult to actually look at too
logically. But there is possibilities of how ups and downs one might experience. That in itself
becomes the evenness at the same time. There is continual experiences involved, and continual
journeys taking place. And somehow, fight somehow doesn’t apply, have no, fighting for it
doesn’t make any sense.
Q: Or resistance?
CTR: Mm hmm. And they are there, and therefore they are a symbol of peace — not that they are
so gentle and smooth, soft, particularly. But somehow the texture doesn’t make any differences.
The existence of those things and how they exist seems to be more important than the texture of
it. And that is the precisely the meaning of awareness, of mindfulness, is that you have, you learn
how to do that; how to look at those, as from an existential point of view, rather than trying to
even them out, trying to landscape out completely, where the big boulders is. Try.
Black hat?
Q4M: Working with the notion of mindfulness of mind, a panoramic view, breathing, let’s say,
say working with some kind of fantasy; seeing it. What leads one into the fantasy in such a way
that the invention of the airplane would result? [Laughter.] In other words, how do you invent
something? I mean, I assume the invention of the airplane is the result of some fantasy of flying.
CTR: Is there a problem?
Q4M: Well, I’m maybe picking up on the notion of being passive, this certain kind of passive —
even the sitting. Maybe we shouldn’t have airplanes, I don’t know, but I’m just curious about
how one –
CTR: [interrupts] Too late.
Well, that’s an interesting mind. When we talk about the awareness being completely there,
we’re not particularly talking about passivity, as such, necessarily. But we are talking in terms of
being sensitized completely, which is called clarity. So, I think it’s a question of some
spontaneous clarity and sensitivity automatically tells you how to walk, how to eat, which
happens with our childhood, how to pronounce words, breathe. And all those things are not
deliberate educational process, but you just pick up as you are accustomed to be with yourself —
as you have sensitivity already developed. So it happens that way.
So, some people might invent airplanes, because someone feels that way, rather than particularly
you want to fly, or you have a fantasy about a bird, a fixation about a bird, particularly. But
somebody have idea of gliding, and feels right. And maybe trial and error for several
47
generations, that somebody picks up that idea and finally here we are. And I think it’s more of a
feeling than a purely a sharp concern for desire, particularly. I think that’s the fundamental
scientistic approach to discovering the phenomenal world. It’s not so much of that they want to
calculate and find out facts and figures; but they want to feel the world — like the Darwinian
theory of how to feel shapes. And there is suggestions taking place, constantly. There is a sense
of being feel right.
And I remember myself for the first time flying in an airplane from the Tibetan border to India,
and I thought it was going to be a sensational experience, like you finally enter into the inside of
a bird and fly with a bird. And, to my disappointment, it wasn’t anything like that at all. You just
go into a cabin, a trailer, and that trailer takes off. [Laughter.] It seemed to be okay — very
natural.
Q4M: Thank you.
Q5M: Rinpoche, do I understand correctly that the four foundations of mindfulness are all within
shamatha practice?
CTR: Yes.
Q5M: Okay. Then I have two questions. The first is that I always interpreted shamatha practice
to involve precision and sharpness — a focused beam — and you mentioned that mindfulness of
mind is like an expanding beam, so that it seems to create an internal panorama, some kind of
awareness of an internal panorama, rather than a precise zeroing in.
CTR: Well, I think the — we are not talking panoramics question at this point; is not so much
like the level of vipashyana, but what we are discussing here is still in the level of sharpness, but
a different kind of sharpness, a different concept of sharpness. The basic idea is being that you
could develop precision simultaneously, at once, with a lot of other points. It’s like looking at
your toothbrush: you see all the points at once. And then you have the recognition of, “This is
being a toothbrush.” You don’t have the actual, literal and gross awareness of you seeing each
hair on the toothbrush, whatever, but you have the sense of being seeing them all together,
completely.
And that’s what’s being discussed in the scriptures as the analysis of seeing hair of, the tail of a
cow. When somebody looks at the tail of the cow, you are looking at the totality of all. You
might just see a black object, but you are seeing each hair actually, otherwise, you can’t see a tail
at all. So you are seeing every one hair separately, individually, therefore you have this black big
object; you’re seeing it. So that’s actually the analysis of shamatha, is very direct and literal, but
at the same time it could be a totality, it could be panoramic.
The vipashyana type of panoramic is much more associated with light and wind, air. And
shamatha type of panorama is involved with precision and literal sense, that there is divided
levels of highlights simultaneously presenting — like you see, you hear, you feel — but you could
still develop precision at once, and that seems to be the basic point.
48
Q5M: So it’s not a spacious panorama, then?
CTR: It’s a question of awareness-of-the-highlights kind of panorama, rather than being
spacious, being concerned with the atmosphere, particularly, but being aware of the objects.
Q5M: Okay, my second question is it seems that the emphasis of mindfulness, it seems like
mindfulness involves primarily a kind of internal awareness, and I understood Buddhist
meditation with the eyes open to be not focused or in any sense really internal, but somehow
neither internal nor external, but mindfulness sounds very internal, almost as if you could do it
with your eyes closed just as well.
CTR: Well, I mean the other way around as well at the same time. Well, you have a mind; you
have sense. You have, still, ears, and you still have, you could feel the temperature around your
body. The question of mind-full-ness is in some sense a viewing the sense perceptions as well as
the cognitive mind. Both of them are seen as one lump sum [sump?], that if you see a design in
front of your meditation cushion on the rug, or grass growing in front of your zafu, you are
seeing the grass and the design on the rug, but that is your mind at the same time. So, that the
whole world is made out of your mind, rather than there is a mind and it is separate from the rug;
separate from the plant; separate from the tent.
You see, it’s — the whole thing is extremely personal. I prefer to call it “personal” rather than
“phenomenological,” because when you talk about phenomenological, that has a lot of illusions
about it. But if you talk about personal, that actually is your thing there — that your version of the
table, your version of the rug, your version of your pain, your version of your child crying, and
your version of your fly sitting on your nose. It’s your mind doing all those things, but at the
same time it is independent — like fly is obviously fly, it’s not just purely your mind, obviously.
But it is your mind at the same time, otherwise you can’t experience it. [Laughs.] So there is that
kind of dual situation takes place.
And maybe we should stop discussing too much of philosophy. But however, that it is possible in
developing awareness practice, that you can feel your mind being fly and fly being your mind; it
doesn’t matter which way to go, which way it goes; it doesn’t really matter at all. We don’t have
to sort out the world’s problem on that point. We just try to be with the world, which is yours and
mine, as well, at the same time. Mind and world are mixed together.
And there is something happens there, which is very real to you because it is very personal to
you. And if you trying to sort it out, it will be entirely difficult, impossible almost, in fact. Such a
problem is only able to sort out, and able to clarify, and able to separate the different energy of
the illusion outside and the illusion inside, is only on the tantric level, that magic is merged at
once. But in the earliest training process, that even if one is trying to attempt to separate which
part of fly is your mind, which part of fly is actually fly sitting on your nose, is not advisable to
even to explore that.
So the question is, keep sitting.
49
Q6F: In the beginning when you have the experiences of the touch, feeling, how does that come
about? I mean, some of that doesn’t seem real, but you still feel touched.
CTR: How did that come?
Q6F: Yeah, how does the feeling come to you?
CTR: Well, you see, that ‘s particularly the point: it doesn’t have to be particularly real. Maybe
unreality is real and we have no way of checking that, particularly. And we run into a
metaphysical problem again. And one doesn’t have to find out the case history, particularly. But
if you feel something is unreal, as far as unreality is concerned, that’s real enough. And we can
go as far as that, rather than exploring the whole thing to make sure that what we are doing is
completely valid and everything is okay. And somehow that is implied, that once if you do that,
then you become more of a scholar than a practitioner, in fact.
Q7F: In one of your previous lectures, you made the statement that the sickness of the Earth is
transmitted to the body. I think it came up in connection with the pain connected with the
meditation. And that it would travel up the spine, up to the eyes. In our group discussion, we
couldn’t decide whether you meant that literally or metaphorically when you spoke about “the
sickness of the earth.” Could you comment on that?
CTR: I think I meant both — metaphysically as well as literally.
Q7F: Well when you say “literally” do you mean something like water rays? Or in what sense do
you mean it literally?
CTR: Well, I think there is — you feel a sense of actually what you are doing. If you hold a hot
cup of tea in your hand, you feel that heat is transmitting through your hand. And actually, it’s
happening. And there is some magic about reality, actually, doing that. It’s very real and very
personal. And at the same time, you have the concept of you might spill that cup of tea over your
shoulder or on your chest or on your laps, that you might panic more, and trying to hold more
tight, which might cause that at some point you might spill over you laps.
Q7F: Oh, yeah.
CTR: That’s tea ceremony.
Black hat.
Q8M: Hello. This problem of following — I sort wanted to talk about practice a little in terms of
what you were saying. It seems like I have the problem, a little, in practice of watching my
breath somehow too carefully. But I’m not sure. It’s like during the middle of dathun, I had four
days of it seemed like I didn’t miss a breath. It was like, “ Out…out…” But I’m wondering if I
was just getting myself into some kind of hypnotic state, because later that just fell apart, and I
was back with my thoughts. Which was okay with me, but I just wondered if I had, like, been
working too hard, pushing too hard for something there.
50
CTR: That sounds pretty good! I think that’s how the whole thing’s supposed to do, supposed to
happen.
Q8: What I’m wondering is: how do you know when you’ve hypnotized yourself? Are you just
open to letting the whole thing fall apart?
CTR: You go berserk, I suppose. [Laughter.]
Q8: Well, I’m working on it. All right.
Q9M: I seem to have reached a plateau in meditation, where I have discovered that I’ve reached
a level of cognitive reverberation, where the mind says, “You’re not yet meditating.”
Reverberation concerning phenomenological data, and memories of the past, before I came here.
How does one deal with this?
CTR: [Laughter; Laughs.] I wonder! [Laughter.] Maybe you couldn’t deal with it. If you are
trying to deal with it, it might become a problem.
Q9M: A breakthrough comes through. It’s just, for me, it’s a problem of efficiency.
CTR: Well, that’s a problem. One has to break the computer machine, and cut the wires, and
hammer it down.
Q9: How?
CTR: Just do it. Without hurting yourself.
Q9: Thank you, sir.
CTR: That was very mystical. [Laughter; laughs]
Q10F: In sitting, I can be very peaceful and sometimes become very clear for moments, and then
afterwards, walk outside and have a situation develop. And the emotions that I thought I had
somehow subdued, would just completely throw me. And I just wondered, if I continue sitting
over a long long period of time whether eventually it all becomes smooth. [Laughter.] And I
think in terms of that goal. [She is almost laughing.]
CTR: There’s more to come! Good luck.
Moustache over there.
Q11M: In terms of emotions and the mindfulness of mind, you referred to it at the beginning of
your talk, but I was sort of preoccupied with my own conflicting emotions, and I didn’t quite
pick up on how emotions and mind connect, or how the practice begins to integrate emotions and
51
mind so that you might eventually have some kind of self-confidence that transcends conflicting
emotions.
CTR: What’s the problem?
Q11M: The confidence seems to be a little late.
CTR: Able to what?
Q11M: The confidence seems to be taking its time. The conflicting emotions are still dominant.
Maybe that’s the same hopeful thing that —
CTR: I think so, and at the same time, that’s a workable situation, and that is the source of
developing mindfulness at the same time. Without those particular material substance, that there
is no journey. And that is the actually the stuff that the practice of meditation consists of; is
working with the conflicting emotions, as well as the occasionally changing gap from another
gap, and the sense of creating relief. And those two situations are the only situations that take
place within oneself. Without that, there is actually no mediation. I think people have the wrong
concept of meditation: is that once you become professional at your practice of meditation, that
you don’t have to think one single thought, and everything is just, “breathe…” And that’s
horrific, in fact — it’s becoming a zombie.
Q11M: How do you connect that to cutting through conflicting emotions? Is there such a thing?
CTR: Well, I don’t think so. Conflicting emotions you don’t cut, you utilize them. Cutting
through comes with the ego itself, which is the hard core can be cut, but the tentacles can be —
pickled. [Laughter.]
Q11M: Occasionally in my practice, when there is some kind of panorama going on — that there
is two things going on at the same time, breathing and something else — as soon as that happens,
it’s kind of a weird feeling. Like, as soon as there’s more than one thing happening, it’s like
there’s nothing happening at the same time. Does that make any sense? I mean as more and more
things get added that seem to be happening at the same time, they get transparent.
CTR: Yeah, that sounds familiar.
Q11M: It feels funny.
CTR. Yeah — Good luck. Do you want to say something more?
Q11: [evidentally gives up microphone]
Q12M: You said that as the practice goes on, the mind becomes more impressionable?
CTR: Yeah.
52
Q: Could you explain that a little better?
CTR: Well, I think that there is appreciation of little things that happens in the everyday life
situation; it becomes humorous and workable, and sound and sight, feeling and experience
become real. That whole thing becomes very personal and actually real. So therefore it’s
impressionable, like, you know, you are never tired of looking at the same piece of rock sitting
outside of your door. Each time, it’s refreshing.
Q: So you mean the mind becomes less frozen, more open? There’s more space going on, less
rigidity, less set patterns —
CTR: That’s right
CTR: Well, we should close ourselves
[end of audio]
53
Talk 6
August 24, 1974
CTR: Most of the part of the seminar we discussed the basic attitude and means of relating with
the sitting practice of meditation. And there are some suggestions were made in terms of taking
an attitude like from the sitting practice-type attitude that should extend to everyday life
situations, but there is never mentioned yet the post-meditation practice. So I would like to raise
that point which is experiencing — which is on the way to experiencing vipashyana from
shamatha practice. And shamatha practice is what we’ve been discussing, the four foundations of
mindfulness and so on.
Vipashyana literally means “clear seeing.” And the general translation of the term used is
“insight meditation.” And it is an attempt to develop or prepare the bodhisattva’s path, the
bodhisattva’s way of practicing paramitas or whatever you have — bodhisattva’s activities:
working with other people. So in order to do that, one has to slowly expand one’s meditative
state or concentration or clarity. And shamatha experience is sort of the kindergarten level at the
beginning. It is very important; one has to begin from somewhere, so it is beginning from the
beginning and simply carrying out discipline and the medium whatever is available at a given
time, using body and breath and mind. Those seem to be the only available medium that we have
in this particular world, planet.
And from that simplicity of, [pause] vipashyana begin to develop. The more simpler and more
literal at the beginning is much more workable. I wouldn’t exactly say that it is successful as
such, particularly, but it is workable. That —
[Big Pause.]
Student: I’m just putting out a fire. [Laughter.]
CTR: The student might find difficulties, all kinds of difficulties, throwing himself into the
world. And there might be a tendency of some kind on the part of the shamatha students, that
tendency to be reserved and be cold, rigid, which is not regarded as particularly a problem. But
that seems to be the general purpose, in some sense, that one has to develop some sense of
stillness, solidity, in order to bring the sense of openness – that’s something to open with. So, in
order to balance the extremes, that it is been suggested that students should develop awareness or
post-meditation practice throughout the whole day.
The reason why it is called post-meditation as opposed to just general awareness is because that
the notion of post-meditation is that you have something relate to, with the sitting practice is just
the starting point. You’ve begun some reference point as related to yourself and just general
awareness, and from that basic awareness, general pattern, then you step out and expand yourself
into the everyday life. So it’s, meditation is the beginning, it’s the source, or the basic
inspiration, and from there slowly other things begin to emerge.
And from that point of view, that there is very little differences between sitting and not sitting.
That the idea is be that the student would develop, eventually, fuzzy boundary between sitting
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and not sitting. There is some continuity takes place; with continuity with the precision. And the
awareness that develops with the meditation-in-action approach is not so much to try to recreate
an awareness state but reflect back. You might ask, “How do you reflect?” and “where to reflect
back?” but at this point, it’s rather vague. One has to try it.
And the awareness or the recollection that the person develops throughout the day is
unconditional experience. That it’s a sudden glimpse of something which doesn’t have a
description or certain particular experience. It’s just some sense of memory. That’s why it’s
called “recollection”: memory in the sense that the concept of awareness does exist, so therefore
that acts as a reminder. And from that memory, then there is some kind of jerk takes place, which
is a short glimpse, a very short glimpse; a microsecond short glimpse.
And there is an attempt to possess that — hold on to that and trying to find out, very inquisitively
— but such an approach seems to be not advisable, because then there is the possibility that you
might try to create artificial awareness which is based on the watcher and self-consciousness and
all the rest of it. So it is — that particular experience is, can’t be captured. We can’t even sustain
it. And, in fact, the suggestion has been made that the person should, in fact, disown it. So there
is recollection, disown it, and then just continue with the cooking or whatever, one doesn’t have
to be startled. And sometimes hardly noticeable; that there is something happens, but maybe one
might think that it is just one’s own imagination – probably nothing happening at all, but it
doesn’t really matter, and one is not particularly trying to keep a record of anything.
And that seems to be a very insignificant thing to do. If that is the only, that awareness, the big
deal that we are talking about, you might ask, “What happens? What does it do to you?” Well,
you could talk about all kinds of virtues and the importance of it, but actually I feel that we
shouldn’t get into that too much. But maybe just an appetizer – a few remarks on that.
The basic logic is the continuity of chain reaction of mental process and ego-clinging network is
what’s known as the samsaric whirlpool. And in that there is — we are not only surviving, or
being in samsara, but we are manufacturing at the same time future samsara from the present
moment. So the samsaric chain reaction could keep continuously grow, and we have security of
our ego for next minute, next month, next year, so we have, make sure enough ego left to hang
onto. So quite interesting way that we manage to manufacture our own future on the present
experience of hanging onto the neurosis. So that’s what’s known as karma, karmic debt, is that
you have, you are subject to the present karma and then from there you create future karma,
because then from present karma is inescapable, so then you don’t want to change the shift. You
feel somewhat settled down into it, therefore you make into, then you create further security
from that basis. So in other words that we are, we feel quite satisfied in some sense, although we
do complain and we feel suffer. But nevertheless, that people enjoy living in a samsaric world,
because that’s much more entertaining. Even suffering itself is entertaining, because we chose
one’s own existence, self and ego and so forth.
So this kind of awareness is the main way to cut the present moment of plant further seed of
karmic chain reactions. So in other words, it shortens the life of ego from that point of view. And
that seems to be one of the basic points. And also, that the present situation, which is the karma
you created which you can’t escape, but using that as a working basis, rather than trying to reject
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the present situation altogether, which is impossible. So therefore awareness process is a way of
sabotaging that continual attempt, and continual process that ego has managed to administrate its
organization.
So I think that much suggestion is good enough. And the post-meditation experiences sometimes
will be clouded with all kinds of ups and downs. And there is a sense of enormous excitement,
and feels that one is actually making some progress, whatever that is. And sometimes, that one is
completely regressing and everything is going wrong. And then there is this kind of neutral
period where nothing really happens and things are somewhat flat. But, however, any of those
situations are good; that they are not regarded as particularly signs of progress or signs of
regression particularly at all. But there are what’s known as the three types of temporary
meditative experiences which also could occur in sitting practice as well as in awareness practice
as well. That is the temporary meditative experience of pleasure or joy, the temporary meditative
experience of emptiness, and the temporary meditative experience of clarity, luminosity. And
those experiences are not regarded as signs of progress particularly at all, so one must just
maintain one’s continual practice.
So that seems to be the preparation towards the bodhisattva’s action. At this point that we are
working on purely on ourselves to develop. And having developed oneself, then there will be
possibilities of working with sentient beings, other people, and dealing with situations, which is
largely based on how a person is able to accomplish the sabotaging the background of ego. And
when there is that much less neurosis, that much more wisdom and skillful means begin to
appear.
Well, we can say a lot of other things, but I think maybe we could stop here and have a
discussion.
Q1M: Yesterday, you talked about the gap that we experience in meditation, and how that was
just another thing, just between two different emotions or thoughts. And today, you mentioned
the experience of emptiness and clarity, and these are all sort of being regarded as not
particularly desirable; they just sort of happen. And my understanding of meditation so far has
been that these are things we’re supposed to cultivate — seeing the gap as something we’re
supposed to – that that’s why we’re doing it. And I guess I’m just a little confused on that.
CTR: Well, we are talking about a lot of different kinds of gaps. There is the gap between one
mood and another mood, which we discussed yesterday. And then there is the awareness, is
could be said is a gap, which will cut through the continuity of ego’s struggle to survive. And
then, another gap, which we haven’t mentioned, is the notion of shunyata and that kind of
experience of greater gap, and so forth.
But these three types of experience –emptiness, clarity, and joy – are not regarded as gaps. They
are just a phase that you might feel the joy, you know, for several weeks or a few days, and the
sense of emptiness is a few days and few weeks. That happens, you know, as you go on
practicing — there is a change of that kind of meditative experience, which is just simply
experience rather than a sense of being. And the thing that we should cultivate — or if you’d like
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to put it that way, “work on” — is the awareness, the basic awareness of checking, if you’d like to
call it, “jerk,” that kind of reviewing, unconditionally reviewing. That seems to be necessary.
Q2M: Rinpoche, after all of what you’ve said, I’m still a bit unclear about why one would come
to a seminar, or one would study sutras. Why not just sit and practice awareness?
CTR: Well, precisely, why not? But we have to know what is awareness to begin with, and have
to study somewhere. I suppose you could stop coming to the next seminars after this and practice
awareness
Q2M: [interrupting] Except that one doesn’t; I’m just wondering why one continues.
CTR: Well, ask yourself.
Q3M: When you first talked at the beginning of the dathun – I think that you were describing
that it was somewhat sensible that we came to sit and there was something in there, that we were
developing skillful means. I thought about that quite frequently during the dathun, because I
seem to tend to associate skillful means with communication. And I just became quite aware of
the fact that there was very little taking place in my attempts at communication with anyone.
And it seems like there is some point of contact between where we are, wherever that is – and
where skillful means begins. Could you describe that?
CTR: Well, I think that skillful means is not so much of like shooting arrow at target
particularly. You can shoot arrow at the empty sky and it still could be an accurate shot.
Q3M: Thank you.
CTR: You’re welcome.
Q4F: I’m trying to connect up some of the different concepts that we’ve mentioned this week,
and I have a feeling that maybe when you were saying that through meditation in action, we’d be
reflecting back on this rather vague feeling of awareness, that you might have been talking about
the same thing as when you talked about maintaining an openness to intuition. Is that so?
CTR: I don’t think so, actually. They are quite different. This awareness is, has no attitude. It’s
just could be said as memory. That largely what you experience is the tail end of that kind of
memory. And maintaining openness to — at this point is not as a sudden glimpse as that, it’s a
certain kind of style one begin to adopt which is a kind of attitude. This one is completely
abstract. And it is therefore, it is possible that this could cut through the neurotic process of ego.
That maintaining openness, on the other hand, also could be an expression of neurosis in some
sense, maybe lighter neurosis.
Q: So that you don’t do anything at all, except to sit, which allows you to experience this
reflection in your daily activities. It’s just a direct result of sitting.
CTR: That’s right, yeah.
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QF4: Yeah.
CTR: Maybe seven hundred times a day.
Q: Okay.
Q5F: I’ve been feeling very confused about a lot of things, but one particularly: the question of
happiness. I seem to hear all the time that suffering is the basic reality, and yet I feel that the
wish for happiness is equally real.
CTR: Mm-hm
Q5F: And I guess I’m hearing – I don’t know if it’s being said – but I guess I’m hearing a kind of
a, as if it’s being said that happiness is merely an illusion. And yet to me it seems like basic
sanity. And when you said the other day that being in touch with reality – many people gave it
fancy names like enlightenment — it sounded to me like just what everybody, like just, being in
touch with reality is happiness.
CTR: Well, I think your question is — being in touch with reality is — what do you mean by that,
actually?
Q5: What do I mean by that?
CTR: Yes.
Q5: Whatever you meant by it when you said…
CTR: Oh I see.
Q5F: In fact, that was the other thing I was going to say, like, reality, you know: when you start
breaking it up, what reality?
CTR: [Laughs.] Well, the reality is — I suppose you could say that it is almost unreachable, and
you can’t be in contact with reality. Then you make reality into a relative reference rather than a
complete one, that you are not in it, but you are outside of reality. So that seems to be always the
problem.
And I think from that point of view, the concept of happiness is also a widely used word. It could
be just happiness in the sense of pleasure and satisfaction. And there’s another type of happiness
is also a kind of neurotic happiness is that in the state of insanity that there is a kind of joy. And
then the tantric traditions talks about mahasukkha, the great joy or bliss, is kind of a — if you call
it happiness — is unconditional and can’t be referred to as pleasure particularly, but just happy.
So we have a large area there. Like a word like love has lots of meanings, and happiness also
means a lot. So if you’re talking about pleasure, then obviously, you know, it’s direct. So in
order to experience some kind of unconditional experience – if there is such a thing at all – then
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one could be satisfied in some sense because there’s no struggle. You could say that is happiness,
but at the same time, it is not particularly pleasurable. That’s doesn’t mean to say it’s painful,
either, you know, it’s open space. In other words, the sense of happiness there, or the bliss that’s
traditionally used, is there’s no need for security, and never soughting (?) [I think he means
seeking] for it and a sense of complete freedom. Therefore the notion of bliss begins to comes
up. And anyway, in particular in the Buddhist tantra, that’s the basic notion of bliss.
And pain, on the other hand, is equally as real as much as pleasure in the ordinary life. But
somehow that pleasure is a much shorter-type period, and pain is usually longer. And that seems
to be the problem. And also within pleasure there are certain hassles involved, which could be
said as suffering, dukkha. So it’s not so much of actually that everything’s painful all the time, or
pain is the reality alone, but there is a hassle involved, constantly.
Q5F: It seemed to me that again it was the same thing as came up when you talked about pain
bringing us over to a point where the life force would start reviving and pulling us back. And the
same thing was true with something else – I forget what it was. And here too: in joy would come
up the suffering, and the suffering would pull us back and in that would come up the seeds of
happiness. So that, it’s like everything is a self-regulating — like a thermostat in your house, how
you don’t get too cold or too hot.
CTR: Yeah. Well, that’s true. I mean, that’s what the — there’s a strain on the electricity, which
is called neurosis.
Q5F: Thank you. But when other thing. But when you say that getting in touch with reality — and
people give it fancy names like buddhahood and enlightenment — but that’s like as if you’re here
and reality’s out there, whereas it’s really in you also, so that you’re not getting to be at one with
some thing out there, but with something that’s out there and in you.
CTR: Well, we’re getting into a metaphysical area here, is kind of, you can’t even say you’re
“one with” because then that means you had two and now you’ve become one.
Q5F: And you’re out there saying it.
CTR: Mmm hmm, and so it’s a question of actually zero. So it’s not coming in or going out, but
it’s just the separateness just dissolves on the spot.
Q5F: Thank you.
Q6M: You spoke about awareness being — you called awareness “memory”. Is that memory a
memory of some state of being? It seems to me it’s got to be a memory of something. Or maybe
a memory of nothing. Is the memory something that has to do with a faint recollection of a state
of being before the development of ego that we’re still linked to?
CTR: I don’t think so. This is not particularly a profound experience at all. It’s just that memory
of information, which you don’t actually understand, which is that you should develop
awareness. So, it’s unconditional memory because of its inadequacy, therefore it happens to
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match the final unconditional somehow, in a very strange way. So it’s imitation, sort of artificial
unconditional. It’s inadequacy, not having complete comprehension as to what awareness is all
about. So you have that, whatever, and somehow, very strangely, that brings the unconditional
into it as well. Eventually it cuts through ego. It’s a very primitive one. And that’s why it’s
workable: it’s primitive and nothing fundamental anything. So it’s just almost memory of
bewilderment, which brings a jerk, and puts oneself back to square one each time.
Q6M: Is there something in our state of being, though, that does recollect something previous to
the development of ego? Or is that…
CTR: Yeah, well that’s the whole idea of the ego functions on it, with it. You know, if there’s no
pulsation or fickleness in ego’s existence, ego couldn’t survive. So there is gaps that is not
recognizable, but natural gaps there all the time. It’s like (?word) space. That’s maybe too
refined at this level for us to look at. I mean, that’s why it is possible that part of the component
of ego consists of non-ego. That’s why it is possible to dissolve ego.
Q7F: I find sometimes that glimpses seem to come later, that sudden jerk, like many hours later
or the next day, and it doesn’t really help the situation. And I don’t know what it is that makes it
come back.
CTR: Well, I think that glimpses should — one can be open to it, towards that possibilities of the
recurrence of it. Once you are willing to open yourself to such a possibility, it comes much more
frequent. It becomes in fact it leads to, for some kind of effort, some kind of discipline. This is
by no means direct, deliberate effort, but there is the sense of accommodating possibilities of it.
And this is not particularly designed to save yourself from the given chaos of the day; and this is
long-term range. And that seems to be the basic point. And meditation on the whole, even the
practice of awareness, is not regarded as a painkiller from any sense.
Q8F: Can you say something about shunyata experience?
CTR: I think that requires another seminar.
Q9M: To what degree is it necessary to have a conceptual grasp on the meditation process in
contrast to trusting the organic nature of practice itself?
CTR: Well, I think those both come side by side. That, if there is some personal experiences
become real to you, and learning situation also becomes that much more personal to you, and
they begin to make sense to you. So it had to be side by side, you know, rather than that you have
a good understanding in order to have an experience, or have too much experience and not
having understanding. It happens simultaneously. And it is necessary to know the functions of
the mind, but even then, that doesn’t have to be a technical study particularly, just a study of
one’s own mind. And I think they come together at some point, unless that person has a
particular blockage in terms of that resistance towards intellectual studies – deliberately trying to
avoid that area – of a bad experience in the past, or whatever. And In such a case, maybe the
person should push a little bit, so that the books are not your enemies, but they could be included
in your practice.
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Q9M: Thank you.
Q10F: During the dathun, I felt like I was getting into sitting practice much more deeply than I
ever had before. And now, like since the nyinthun, I feel like my meditation is really terrible –
like I don’t want to do it. And it’s almost like the whole experience of the dathun never
happened. And I guess what I want to know is if your practice can really regress.
CTR: Well maybe dathun never happened. [She laughs; laughter]
I think — well there is sort of overlapping from one situation to another situation, particularly
when one is trying to push oneself too hard. The ambition begins to slow down your speed at
some point. That sort of tends to happen. But as long as that meditation is regarded as using your
mind rather than your imagination, I don’t see any particular problem with the regression,
particularly. In order to give up practicing meditation, you have to give up your mind, which is
maybe doing the same thing, so you can’t even do that. It’s actually — meditation practice is a
very haunting experience; and, once you begin it’s, you can’t give up. [She laughs.] The more
you try to give up, you have more spontaneous openness that comes to you, so it’s a very
powerful thing.
Q11F: I seem to feel like I keep hitting ego’s basic twist in working with awareness, and that it
seems to justify or validate whatever’s happening. And it’s sort of like I can be conscious and
aware of sowing the seeds of bad karma, as you say, and the awareness sort of seems like it’s
okay to – I mean that’s what’s happening, and you’re aware of the present.
CTR: So?
Q11F: So it seems like it’s strengthening ego rather than cutting through.
CTR: You mean the awareness?
Q11: Yeah.
CTR: How come?
Q11: It just justifies whatever’s happening.
CTR: Well, obviously if you watch, and if you try to work on awareness as, you know, collecting
your income — and obviously that situation happens. But the idea of disowning is at the same
time when awareness takes place. You see, the whole thing is that is very simple; one doesn’t
have to make long-range plans to get around ego. Once you begin to do that, then something else
around you, which makes a greater long-range plan for you, which is ego. So if we begin to do
that, there is no way out, and one is completely trapped. But everything had to be very immediate
and direct – like awareness is a very simple matter, it just happens — not just you are analyzing
it, you are trying to justify it and try to understand it. You don’t have to do any of those. It’s a
very simple action – in the midst of a very enormous chaos and problem maybe, but it’s a simple
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one. So, it’s a question more of simplifying any situation rather than there’s a particularly big
problem.
Q11F: Thank you.
Q12M: When in sitting practice — or whenever—when there is no longer such a strong sense of
foreground/background, yet there is still a strong sense of unwholesomeness, what is the ground
of the unwholesomeness?
CTR: I should find out!
That, there is enormous opportunity to look at and find out what it is. Otherwise, if everything’s
being answered, there’s nothing to do. Just look up your dictionary, and all your problem’s been
solved, and you don’t have a sense of the journey. So I think that’s the basic attitude, actually
rather than what’s the problem solved(?). And in a particular situation like that, there’s such
richness is happening, and one can at least take the opportunity of that richness and find out
more. One doesn’t have to be creepy about it, particularly. One just does it.
Q13F: Rinpoche, the last thing you said about when we have less neurosis, I not sure if I
understood. “Skillful means and wisdom will then begin to appear.” But, when I hear you say
that, I react to it hopefully; I think of a goal, you know, I think of — I can reach that state of less
neurosis. Could you say something about how whether I’m being too hopeful in this, or whether
I have any understanding of —
CTR: Well, I don’t see any particular problems — that whether we trying to pretend that we don’t
understand anything at all or not, we know that actually the practice of meditation everybody’s
trying to attain enlightenment, and that’s kind of an open secret. [Laughter.]
Q13F: So I’m making a big deal out of–
CTR: Everybody knows that anyway; knows that it’ll do you some good, you know. So we have
to get that clear rather than, “Of course, we don’t look at those things but we do something else,
you know” But on the top of that, it doesn’t really matter; that’s just a concept or idea that we
have, like “One day we are going to die” We know that; that’s kind of a concept, at this level
anyway.
So then there is another situation, which is an immediate situation: that you have a practice
happening, and that had to be direct. And at some point, even that concept becomes meaningless,
because that’s been known for a long time. And it becomes just a shell or just, you know, just a
word, a concept – and it doesn’t really matter. And I don’t see any problems with that. So the
question is immediateness and directness.
Q: So there’s no problem of being too hopeful.
CTR: Well, I mean, it’s a question of not necessarily hopeful in the sense of that you feel poor,
that you want to be rich, but in the sense of that — there could be a sense of inquisitiveness, that
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open-minded towards skillful means and wisdom. And that kind of open-mindedness and willing
to associate oneself with it rather than saying, “Oh, I’m not ready for it” and “I’m too bad for it.”
You see, that’s very present or very immediate rather than one day it’s going to happen to you,
when there is possibilities that might take place even at this point. So it’s a question of like the
dharma of myth and the dharma of a living situation.
Maybe we can close at this point; there are a few words coming up.
Coordinator: I just wanted to say a few things for the sake of each of us. I would like to thank
Rinpoche for providing this opportunity and for sharing these teaching with us, and to thank each
one of you for coming and participating and helping do the work that’s required to have a
seminar, and for your very friendly and mellow attitude during the whole time. In particular, I’d
like to thank the two cooks. [Applause. Barking dog.] And also, I’d like to thank you for your
very generous participation in donating your money. It seems that it will now be possible to
invite everyone back for the fall and the winter and for next summer. [Applause.] Thank you
very much.
CTR: Well I hope that you’ll be able to take something back home, or, if you’re going to stay
here, keep something in your purse. That what we discussed just, should be worked on, so that
make sure that our effort is perpetually resourceful and put into good use rather than building up
further spiritual materialism, which seems to be the present (?) of every one of us, in terms of
trying to apply the things we discussed into everyday-life situation.
And I think everybody here had been doing the practice of meditation — most of you — have
received instruction and so forth, that it would be very important to try to keep a daily schedule
of the practice of meditation, and, if possible, that try to create some kind of space at least once a
month, or once every fortnight to have an open space of sitting mediation. Like facilities are
available in all the local Dharmadhatus in the different areas of the country, they have nyinthuns
scheduled for everybody. And if you are living by yourself, and are being extremely busy, it
would be good to give yourself a present of a free day once in ten days or two weeks, and sit in
practice and work on particularly the practice of meditation and try to simplify the life around
you, and start it from that angle, which is very important.
And, thank you for your patience. [Laughter; applause.]
Coordinator: One thing I forgot is that I should announce is that Naropa Institute will not be in
session during the winter. This decision was made as a result of yesterday’s meeting here. So it
will reopen again at the beginning of next summer to offer degree programs and it will continue
at that point. Yes, next summer. Beginning.